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The sky has finally fallen...

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by ctjcad, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Its also posible that other will think the same way as you. You think they dont work enough and they think you dont work enough. If thats the case, no health bill will be passed and US will still end up as the only develop country in the world without a public health care system.
     
  2. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    You lined up a hell of a problems/excuses/critisisms there.
    If its not a progress/fix, then how should BO do to have a public health care system in place?
     
  3. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    #44 cooler, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  5. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    On these..

    ...maybe..maybe those 30+ uninsured folks actually voted him in, in hope so he can pass any kind of health care reform bill (even as bad as this)..unfortunately, this is what those 30+ million uninsured people get (i don't know how many of them are thrilled)..
    So, not sure if all of them are happy or not; but i feel there are a couple or so million folks who are happy. But definitely the majority of American people are not so supportive..
    IMO, this issue will probably not be revisited seriously again for at least a generation, at max. Or perhaps, earlier.:p
    - I'll tell you guys what. I'll give 1 credit to Prez BO (and those Dems who voted for this) for passing this bill. And that credit is by forcing the passage of this bad law (which i feel he also believes, deep down, it's a bad law), this has awaken every American people, i mean literally everyone, on this healthcare issue. To some, they feel it's a start, eventhough a really bad start, to having a better healthcare system. Now, everyone is awake and are up in arms on this passage and will start to find lawmakers who will work on replacing or amending the contents of the law (yes, it's still possible). Yes, people will demand whoever is put in power next to run the Congress, those people will be put in there to work and change this law.
    My thinking is, Prez BO wants to be known as the one who started this process. But not necessarily the one who finishes it, because this bill will not be the end of it all and there bound to be more changes, amendments and debates in the future on this.
    - As for why there are people who don't have healthcare insurance; here are the main reasons:
    a) Insurance premiums too high. But realistically, there is no easy way to lower the price. (already been discussed in the other HC thread)
    b) Those people are not working, thus no health insurance. If one is not working, how would one expect to get a health insurance. Whether that person is not working because of laziness or just not qualified or major illness, that we don't know. (already been discussed in the other HC thread)
    c) They just refuse to get one because he/she feels there's no need to spend their money on health insurance (mostly younger folks). Which is also their right & choice.
    But this bill doesn't even solve those 3 problems on why 30+ million Americans don't have health insurance. This bill is just expanding what is already there, Medicare, and making it bigger so it can subsidize even more people.
     
    #45 ctjcad, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    It's good you're asking all these..

    Dear Yoppy or should i call you Mr. Y (maybe you like to ask "why?" a lot;))??..
    Btw, you can just call me small "c". Big "C" is for Dr. Cheung..;)

    For the 1st part, i understand you like to read Newsweek, and yes it's not a bad magazine, and i used to read that magazine every so often. But to tell you, it's a liberal leaning magazine (i'm not sure if you're a proud liberal or not?). Not to tell you to stop reading, but be aware of that and the content.
    Btw, that fact & infos are already well known & documented.
    Why there are so many people in the U.S. who die and go bankrupt each yr because of lack of coverage? For my answer, you can take a look above to my reply to Mr. t. The discussion for this has also been brought up in the other HC thread which you can read in its entirety, so i won't spend more time typing.

    For the 2nd part, to tell you, my next door neighbors usually are not home during the day as they are at work. Again, as i already mentioned in one of my previous posts, i don't mind a change of the U.S. current health care system. The idea to expand coverage to everyone is noble and worthy, i'm not against it. Unfortunately, how to solve it "the right way" is the key and it's the toughest thing to do. And what the U.S. folks have now is a bad solution to the problem. Only a small percentage of the population likes/supports the new bill (for the most part because they don't know what's hidden in it and the long term consequences).

    Thank you for admitting you're not fully aware of the U.S. economy. But to tell you, if you've been reading & following news and articles, you would already know the U.S. is in deeeeep doo-doo in terms of its national debt and deficit. Just read the last "sky is falling again" thread. We've touched on that already. You might even find a link to see how much debt the U.S. has.:eek::eek:
    Adding this new entitlement is akin to you adding a new lease to your already credit card debt. But the main problem is, the U.S. doesn't have the money to finance this new program which will, yes, increase even more in the future. So, how is the govt.(or the ones who voted for it) gonna finance this whole mess? Yesp, through even more taxation (if not printing, which will create inflation). And yes, we Americans don't like to be taxed through the roof.
    Question to ask: If you have a mounting debt, does it make sense to add more debt??..And doing this is in a tough economic time??..

    For the fourth part, yes, the U.S. already has Medicare and a bunch of other govt. program to provide basic medical services for the needy. In a way, U.S. has alredy some sort of a universal health care system (but in most part, it's still a private/free-market system). It's not as if the U.S. don't have one.
    What the new bill is doing is basically expanding those govt. programs, mainly Medicare, even bigger. What the Democrats are doing, in their strategy, is to paint a negative picture on the insurance companies and how they jack up the prices as a basis to pass this bill. In reality, insurance companies don't make much profit. What the Democrats really want is to control the people's money even more through taxation>>IRS!!!
    Some people are not covered because of the reasons i gave above (reply to Mr. t) and also because the govt. is running out of money to sustain those big govt. programs.

    In regards to this new bill creating more jobs in the health industry & make the economy grow again, i'm sorry, but it's not going to. This plan will only make the already established govt. program bigger. To create new jobs, one has to go out and actually be creative and start a business. Businesses are what create the economy and the money. Not govt. nor healthcare.

    And last, in regards to the "inalienable rights including a right to life" statement, yes, i understand there may be different interpretations. But it has no relation to one having the govt. deciding whether a person should get a health insurance or not. Also, there's no mention of having a "right to healthcare". Or the "govt. having a right to give healthcare". Only a "right to life".
    Here, i have a good reading for you on this "inalienable rights including a right to life" issue and in relation to having a universal health care system:
    http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N32/maurer.html

    Have a read on the other HC thread also. This has been pretty much covered and discussed already.:cool:
     
    #46 ctjcad, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  7. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Winding up..

    ..there is already a public health care system in place in the U.S. And, yes, we know it's broken. Prez BO and his cohorts (the Dems) are trying to fix or think they have the right fix, but they don't. This is just a temporary patch/fix; in the long run i feel it'll fail. They are just focused on expanding the role of the govt. even more. And to have the IRS, yes, that unconstitutional body, even more power.
    :p..you've been drumming on this for a while already..That is the correct approach to the illness!

    To wind up:
    - I am fully in support of a reform bill that gives coverage to nearly all Americans but at a reduced cost.
    There have been great bi-partisan HC bill introduced to the Congress such as the Healthy Americans Act or HAA (or Wyden-Bennett Act, sponsore by a Democrat and a Republican, introduced under Prez W) and the Paul Ryan Act (using voucher). Yes, you guys can google them.
    Both provide "universal coverage" but at a lower cost and will benefit the people's tax money. You fix both problems.
    Unfortunately, the Dems who are in power refuse to accept those ideas and instead prefer to use a govt. based HC system while ignoring to tackle the cost problem. It's not as if the Republicans didn't try, but the opposition force was just too much.
    I feel the opposition party (Republicans) to the bill didn't sell their plans well. I know there are more lawmakers with a doctor background in the Republican party than the Dems party. So, i'm sure they would know also issues in relation to the patients. I know they tried to offer their ideas to amend the laws but given the political nature and power of the Congress and the WH, it's almost impossible.
    That's why i mentioned in the other HC thread, in order to have a good, sound and reasonable bill which the people approve, both parties need to work together: Dems have ideas on coverage measures but not cost measures. Republicans have ideas on cost measures but not coverage measures. Then, if so, they need to come and solve this as adults and provide a bipartisan solution. Instead, infighting occurred between both parties and at the end we end up with a piece of you-know-what bill.:p
    - Going back to what i already mentioned, eventhough this is already a law, it still can be amended or some parts of it can be replaced. I give Prez BO credit for his effort to at least "force" everyone to pay attention & wake up.
    Now, the role shifts to the opponents or to those who don't like the new bill. If they want to amend or replace it, yes, they can do so & have a chance in the upcoming mid-term election. The people will give them a chance and power to do so. But i really hope they will work real hard to fulfill the people's desire. Get it done & hopefully we'll have a reasonable looking bill/law that the rest of the America wants!:cool:
     
    #47 ctjcad, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  8. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Mr small "c"

    hi c, looks like we are a good match, i like to ask "why" a lot and you like to answer "cos" a lot hehheeh

    Newsweek is happen to be the one that im reading at the moment, im not taking any political side of it. As for the answers to its content in regards to the health care casualties are just not satisfactory for me, we wont accept that condition here in Australia.

    Im glad that you acknowledge that the U.S. current health care system can be improved, thats a start. This lead me to the question, did US citizen gave a mandate to Mr Pres BO during election to have it reformed? I have the impresion that he already promised about the reform during the election time, and if he did so with outlining how will he do it once elected, then he just simply keeping his promise.

    I agree with you that its at the moment a bit hard especially in Australia not to make a bit of fun about US current stage of economy, its just consume and borrow too much and at risk of losing its AAA credit rating. Its unimaginable. One of the joke says, "Latest US invention: Sub-Prime Crisis, come and see it at your nearest Holywood box office".

    As i said im no expert at all to comment on the affordability of the health care reform. But surely the poor or the world did not create the recession, did they? It was cause by careless US mortgage lender in the first place. So why now they (including the world economy) have to pay the price? Let me answer that Mr c, we all have to pay the price because we are all connected and we did not prevent that to happend, in other words we are all in this s**t hole together. Our economies are all linked, if the US go down the river so will the AU economy, we can only blame you guys to what happend but at the same time must be supportive on the solutions.

    The same can be said to the health matter. The simple fact is there are people now going to die as we speak just because he/she dont have insurance cover (as why he/she did not have insurance is not a matter of concern anymore). It is now in the hand of US govt/people to make a choice, and i think based on that Mr. Pres BO did what he did yesterday.

    A right to life is a right to life. When people is sick and dying he/she simply must receive a proper medical attention (its regardless of the end result which of course depends on the severity on the problem), this is how intrepet "a right to life" in the US independent declaration says. On your article its based on the argument/impression that "the right to the pursuit of happiness, not the right to happiness." I agree on the statement, its the same as me saying "the right to the pursuit of healthiness, not the right to healthiness". As i understand it, the health care reform is not about getting "healthy campaign", it about giving sick men and women a right to life.

    Its nice to have a discussion with you, its been a pleasure :D. I hope everything will be OK in the US, otherwise BC wont be as interesting place to be :D:D
     
  9. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Can anyone explain why the US spends so much more per capita on health care yet performs so poorly against almost all developed countries? Obviously, there is something sinister about it. Maybe there are too many faked billings for services never rendered. Or maybe there are too many services that were not really necessary.
    I suggest the US seek help from our Hong Kong's ICAC to find the defrauders.
     
  10. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Could be the docs in US are so scared of malpractice lawsuits that the docs call for all kinds of test to cover themselves that drive up the cost of healthcare delivery. And there are a lot of other maybes...:D


     
  11. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    same reasons why Americans spend much more per capita on badminton than people in MAS, INA, CHINA, KOR, THAILAND (and perform poorly too)
     
  13. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Hi T, i suspect this also caused by the high spending by the wealthier people in addition to the unhealthy eating habits that the Americans famous about. The US is one of the (if not the) fatest nations in the world, so to cope with all the health problem the cost must also rise higher than the rest of the wolrd without necesarily delivering a better result
     
  14. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    no, it is just our @$$ that is fat...
     
  15. pBmMalaysia

    pBmMalaysia Regular Member

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    this is interesting, how does it happen?:confused:
     
  16. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Cooler, let us be frank about this. The per capita spending on badminton in the US will not even register any number, hence its rock bottom position.
     
  17. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i mean per capita of american badminton players.
    One dollar spent of healthcare goes a long way in developing countries than one dollar spent on healthcare on american soil. One dollar spent in badminton equips and training goes alot farther in those listed countries than in the US of A.
     
    #57 cooler, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  18. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    It comes as no great surprise that some lawmakers who voted for Obama's new health care bill in the US have received serious threats and abusive insults to their lives. I think the FBI is lookiing into this. Some of the posts here are not very far from such threats and insults.
    Before the bill was passed the US was the only industrialized country with no universal health care. Now, it has finally left its third world health care status and joined the civilized world. For that some Americans want to kill their president? If they cannot reach their president they are now gunning for those who helped him pass the bill? Is this the US or the wild lawless land where everything and anything goes?
     
  19. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    the big pharma is definitely supporter of obama's health bill, they stand to gain 32 million mew patients taking pills and drugs, a new untap market the size of whole canada.

    I'm not against low cost healthcare to the less finanically able people but throwing in more money without fixing the whole system is just a patch up job, just like bailing out of banks and car makers. Like a morphine injection, it feels good for now but the sickness is still there.
     
    #59 cooler, Mar 24, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2010
  20. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Looking at the American health care system and where it was headed would show that the country was heading towards the demise of a country. It (health care) would reach 20% of GDP soon and it would head towards 100% in the long term.
    Until recently, no president had the guts to do something about putting a stop to this madness because of lack of political will and fear of being kicked out of office. Look no further than how the votes were idnetified by the parties each belong to. One party, like lemmings without independent thought, all voted against the bill.
    There are a few major players who have an impact on the costs of health care. These are the doctors, hospitals, drug makers, and others associated with health care. The American people or public should look no further than to zero in on these 4 sectors, who have so far obscenely milked the country without shame.
    Bring in more doctors at contracted prices that are one tenth of a local doctor. Sell your hospitals to other countries' hospital authorities. Allow countries like India and Indonesia to flood your country with drugs.
    But will America do this? Politicians will not. Only great statesmen can turn the tide.
     

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