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The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by cobalt, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    viver, you call that a proof? I call it a publicity stun before a book launch. The allegation was fully denied by Rudy. You can find it on the following articles:http://berita.liputan6.com/read/234255/Buku.quotPanggil.Aku.Kingquot.Menuai.Kontroversi If you can translate that RH mentioned the AE 1976 was a pure match.Im sorry even Liem Swie King did not mentioned of any match fixing. And BTW this is what Liem Swie King said "I lost to him, that's all", what does that suppose to mean? It mean he lost to RH, thats all, no? View attachment 109005 And where is in that article mentioned what Rudy said anything about fixing a match? Here's what he said "But it was part of our strategy in anticipation of 1979 Thomas Cup finals and the possibility of China making its debut in the championships," Did he say what strategy that was? NO. How can we conclude the strategy he meant was a match fixing strategy? Its clearly that the sentence was mis-qouted and taken out of proportion. So where is it? Where did Rudy Hartono or PBSI boss ever bragged about match fixing and feel proud about it??Lets compare that to what LYB said.I rest my case
     
    #181 Yoppy, Oct 5, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
  2. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    viver, you call that a proof? I call it a publicity stun before a book launch. The allegation was fully denied by Rudy.

    You can find it on the following articles:http://berita.liputan6.com/read/2342...ai.Kontroversi If you can translate that RH mentioned the AE 1976 was a pure match.

    Im sorry even Liem Swie King did not mentioned of any match fixing. And BTW this is what Liem Swie King said "I lost to him, that's all", what does that suppose to mean? It mean he lost to RH, thats all, no?

    Attachment 109005

    And where is in that article mentioned what Rudy said anything about fixing a match? Here's what he said "But it was part of our strategy in anticipation of 1979 Thomas Cup finals and the possibility of China making its debut in the championships," Did he say what strategy that was? NO. How can we conclude the strategy he meant was a match fixing strategy? Its clearly that the sentence was mis-qouted and taken out of proportion.

    So where is it? Where did Rudy Hartono or PBSI boss ever bragged about match fixing and feel proud about it?? Lets compare that to what LYB said. I rest my case ​
     
  3. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Yoppy,

    You are welcome to choose what you like to believe. The article posted by Loh is from a newspaper from Indonesia, the Jakarta Post I believe. Is the newspaper reliable? You can better judge it for yourself, I am not from Indonesia and surely not familiar with the local happenings. On the same token, can I say that LYB was also misunderstood and his words misinterpreted by the press?

    As mentioned, I don't give this topic much thought. It is also not my concern if you found the article not reliable. I have been exposed to badminton for many years, involved in different ways, had different roles and have my sources of information. You surely have your own experiences in the badminton world and accordingly your own opinions and interpretations of the events should be different from mine.

    The other day I read an article about sports being the modern opium of the society. An interesting article, where the writer ranted on the effects of football (soccer) in their country and the national politics involved - individuals receiving national honors for results achieved on the field, the writer asked, what did they do? But I believe most of the people in general saw it the other way.
     
  4. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Update on the spot-fixing issue for those interested...

    Jury sees no-ball footage and phone records
    Richard Sydenham at Southwark Crown Court
    October 6, 2011

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/current/story/535349.html

    Excerpts:

    ...Butt and Asif are facing charges of conspiracy to cheat, and conspiracy to obtain and accept corrupt payments, following that Lord's Test in August last year when they allegedly conspired with Majeed, teenage fast bowler Amir and other people unknown to bowl pre-determined no-balls. Butt and Asif deny the charges.

    ...All stories of phone and text traffic were substantiated with official records from phone companies that proved the dialogue between the various parties.

    ...Much of the money was found in a locked suitcase that Butt said belonged to his wife and for which he did not have the key. When it was opened they found a "large" amount of currency - some of which was in envelopes and some not. In total the stash included £14,003 in one spot, and £15,999 in various denominations in envelopes. There was also US$12,617, 24,300 of UAE dirhams, AUS$710, 26,015 Pakistani rupees, $350 Canadian, 440 South African rand - as well as four mobile phones.

    Meanwhile, Sawani (the ICC's chief investigator) was in front of the jury for just over half an hour. His responses, while not very specific as to the case itself, will have left the the jury more familiar with the vast sums of money involved in the illegal cricket betting industry.

    "One single legal betting company could generate £40 million for a one-day international," Sawani told the court, "For an India-Pakistan one-day international in Mumbai, you can have as much as $200 million bet in the illegal betting market in Mumbai and then (additionally) there are the cities around India, the UK, the South East (Asia) and Dubai."
    Sawani told of the sinister underworld that exists in the illegal betting industry and said that accounts are settled the day after a bet is made and that there are no defaulters because "mafias are the enforcers".
     
  5. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Hi all,
    I have been thinking that there are no new arguments to the thread and many are still in denial mode.
    I would like to recall that the semi-final of the 2004 Olympic WS match between Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning was fixed, and that the 2000 Olympic semi-final between Ye Zhaoying and Gong Zhichao was also fixed. Li Yongbo gave many interviews about that.
    Both were tough decisions. Ye Zhaoying was destroyed but she had no choice, and Zhou Mi left China.

    But though this is upsetting, I don't think it is the biggest problem. The big problem is that the 'team strategy' is nowadays constant - every tournament is affected (when CHN is there), and in more then one discipline. What have been exceptional decisions have become the normal way of doing things. It is now massive.
    So we should stop arguing about 'is it true', 'is it only CHN', 'do we have proof' etc., and go to the real issue.
     
    #185 renbo, Oct 6, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
  6. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Clear and concise english, you said it all in 2 paragraphs.
     
  7. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    What is the issue then? If there is an issue(s) what would be the solution?
     
  8. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    After 11 pages worth of posting, I've to wonder where this thread is heading. Would the OP drive to the resolution, come up with an action plan, follow up on it, and make it happen? Or not?
     
  9. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    What would be the solution?

    .
    Just allow every player to perform their best every time.

    As coaches, they should encourage their trainees to perform their best every time.

    As spectators, they should get to watch matches that players are performing their best every time.

    Otherwise, Badminton would be known as a 'Pretend/Acting Sport', and our Badminton popularity will drop from 'Not so good' to 'Bad'. :(:(:(
    .
     
    #189 chris-ccc, Oct 6, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
  10. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Well, in the firsts pages of this thread there were some solutions proposed. But of course we are only chatting on the net, we're in no position to make a decision.
    Except perhaps one, the option I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion : to react as fans when we see some unfair behavior. Lin Dan was strongly boooed in Singapore and rightly so, I think local clubs should write some posters with the appropriate insults for cheating teams to show to tv cameras, and, if we would have the guts, to boycott any game played by a team after it cheated. Imagine the whole stadium emptied in Jakarta or Tokyo for a final after a fake semi. If this would happen in two or three stadiums, the sponsors would start to freak out and the BWF as well.
     
  11. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    We, the audience and badminton fans can only do so much.
     
  12. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Some of the greatest documents like the Charter of Rights were devised by a few people tossing around ideas in the light of paraffin lamps, without the help of the Internet, email, forums, search engines etc. Sometimes I think we've become victims of our own obsession with procedures, rules, protocols, alignments, information overload, dissemblance etc. Maybe a lot of us have lost the ability to see the woods for the trees. Common sense; clear thinking; straightforward values; decisive action - all these are mostly dinosaurs now. We will take other people's words and statements, rules and procedures, and twist them to suit and justify our agenda.

    You're doing fine, renbo. In some cases, it often takes a hot iron up the backside to get some decisive action. Please continue to contribute your thoughts, they are much appreciated!
     
  13. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    No point in working towards any premature conclusion. I have a feeling there are still many good ideas and suggestions that are still to come. No harm waiting, is there? :) We're not trying to beat any deadline here after all, but striving toward a (hopefully) consensual set of suggestions/guidelines/amendments/ideas that can sew up the holes that national associations can take advantage of.

    You've asked some pretty searching questions so far; maybe you'd also like to contribute some thoughtful suggestions for implementation? :)
     
  14. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I know the feeling, making a trip to the stadium, purchase the ticket(s), hoping for an exciting match but... Well, during my days WOs were rare, there would be at least an 'exhibition match'. Today I rarely go to the stadiums, much less with the 21-point system which in my view, pretty boring.

    Badminton is a regulated sport, to change it needs a good look into the existing rules and make appropriate changes. From what I have heard, my feeling is that the organization is in a mess and leadership lacking, there is why so many issues.

    Booing athletes does not help and is not fair to them in my opinion. They work hard, work through obstacles and challenge themselves every day to be there. Many athletes with the ability to reach advanced rounds in the competition have strong confidence in their abilities and also attain the highest in rankings. If they cannot play for whatever reason, they are the ones that are affected the most.

    I am slow and can't think of anything. From what I can understand, the issues are quite complex as of now. Many countries put a lot of resources into sports and surely there must be strong reasons for this. I remember the interview by Tang Xianfu when as player, he mentioned he was ordered by a Chinese minister to lose the match, at the request of the minister from his opponent's country. Also an article in a newspaper where the writer considers that sports are the modern opium of the masses.

    In my opinion, these should be good for our thoughts. Myself, I try not to get too distracted by these issues.


     
  15. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Then just show them the MONEY every time. ;)

     
  16. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    The story you mention, Viver, is nothing mysterious : it is the old communist way of looking at sport. The performance of the athletes were suppose to 'prove' the worth of the regime, and sports were an extension of the cold war, and as such winning/losing were political decisions. Of course many of this still remains today (not the cold war, but the self-esteem of a nation related with the sports results).
    About the players not deserving to be booed : they fully deserve it. It is about them. It is their glory if they win, and their shame if they cheat. I am sure they totally understand this (in fact LYB recognize this also in his interviews).
    Saying that players cannot play "for whatever reason" is an escape from your part. We are not talking in this thread of players who cannot play, we are talking of players that cannot play for very precise reasons. It is those reasons we discuss.
     
  17. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    It maybe the old communist way of looking at sport. I have heard many countries invest heavily in sports - mind you not only communist countries. If you look for western authors, you may find works related to sports which may interest you.

    A player conceding a WO is a player that cannot play, for whatever reason. It may be to your liking or not, but it has been approved by an authorized individual or party. As said, badminton is a regulated sport and there are regulations. We are allowed to speculate, but we can't state for certainty. Like somebody posted, No hard evidence, No witnesses. But as a fan, you can show your disapproval by not going to the games, can't you? Or like you suggested, go to the stadium, pay for the ticket and boo the players.

    I recognized that I am slow and can't find good reasons for WOs. But I assume if BWF could provide purses that are good enough for the good players to support themselves, I would guess the scenario would be quite different. :confused:
     
  18. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Players should perform their best every time

    .
    This is when the problem starts...

    The organiser of the tournament tells players (open to all to know): "Winning your match, you shall receive a prize money of $X.

    Another person tells a players (in secret): "Losing your match, you shall receive a reward of TWICE of $X".

    Regardless of what money the players are to receive, they should be encouraged to perform their best every time.

    This is what eaglehelang has posted, "Badminton is becoming the laughing stock of the other sports when they see all this antics going on".
    .
     
    #198 chris-ccc, Oct 7, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011
  19. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Viver, the fact that many countries involve heavily in sports in not communist (though communists are strong at that) but the fact that an order to give up a match for a political/diplomatic reason is given is definitively typical of communist regime. That is what you mention with the story of Tang Xianhu.
    I can't understand a thing of your second paragraph. "A player is ordered to cheat, and therefore he cheat. We don't like this, there are regulation but we are not sure. Don't go". I does not make sense.
    Moreover, if nobody goes to the tourneys, it is the end of international badminton and that is not a solution. To boycott a match is different, it is showing a disapproval.
    The prizes given to players is not a decisive factor. Players in the CHN team are not lacking money. Money is not what makes them play in the national sport center. Or else the national organisation of badminton in CHN would have to be different (selection of players is at age 12, the children then leave their family to go to formations center).
     
    #199 renbo, Oct 7, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2011
  20. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Not just China, but the players of many other countries are controlled by (at the mercy of?) their national associations. BWF policy is to deal only with national associations, not with players. There are possibly some good reasons for this, but like everything, there will also be downsides because the natl associations are run by human beings, who often have their own agendas, and/or are incompetent, and/or are also heavily influenced by political interference, to put it bluntly.

    Just increasing the payout to players is not likely to resolve the issue of questionable walkovers/withdrawals. The player's careers are more-or-less mortgaged to the national association. They have to fall in line with priorities/agendas or run the very real risk of being totally sidelined.

    My 2c...
     

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