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The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by cobalt, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    See thats another way the criminal can get to it. And it happens everywhere even in developed country such as Australia, the only two things are different:

    1. The incentives level varies from places to places. It applies to both the police and the criminals.
    2. The level of protection vs the modus operandi are also different from places to places.

    So one can conclude that all of the protective measures are there only to minimise, scare off and keep up the pace of the crime. And in no way any measure will totally eliminate the crime.

    Back to the WO issue, here are my suggestions:

    1. If a player WOed againts his/her opponent from the same country, he/she will automatically lost his/her points gained during the tournament as well as the previous tournament. And the points deducted will be equally distributed to 3 players rank below him/her.

    2. If a player WOed againts his/her opponent from the same country fora total of 4 times in the last 24 months (or 2 times during 9 or 12 months), he/she will served a total banned from participating BWF sanctioned tournament for at least 6 months.

    3. I also like the idea mentioned by V1lau "they should let the athlete(s) who lost originally to the person who withdrew, to advance and play instead of giving a walkover!"

    4. On top of points deduction, and just like in other sports match fixing case, the guilty party must surender the title as well as the price money.

    5. Also found this articles in specifically calling for the sacking of LYB: http://www.badminton-information.com/players_chief_wants_more_action_on_match-fixing.html


    here are a few match fixing cases that perhaps relevant

    1. Singapore Formula One crashgate: Renault Formula One crash controversy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Formula_One_crash_controversy
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6840760.ece

    2. Floyd Landis doping case
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis_doping_case

    3. 2006 Italian football scandal
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Italian_football_scandal
     
  2. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=416666

    [h=1]China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton[/h]16:47 AEST Sat Mar 22 2008
    AFP
    China's badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games.
    Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television's sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China's chances of winning a gold medal.
    Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie.
    After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.
    "After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website.
    "So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
    Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of.
    "It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it."
    Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August.
    For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.
    Li's admission revived long-standing concern about behind-the-scenes arrangements at top international table tennis and badminton events by Chinese teams.
    The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships.
    She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.
    In badminton, suspicions are still rife about Wang Dan's defeat to teammate Chen Jin in the recent all-England final, with some experts suggesting that Wang threw the game.
     
  3. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Are we comparing apples with apples? E.g. doping is illegal in most athletic events. But match-fixing? You can say they' still play by the regulations. They just have a longer view and a bigger plan than most other countries...
     
  4. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    Please refer example no 1 & 3

    Match fixing includes taking bribes to intentionally lose a match
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/football-stars-charged-with-taking-bribes-1593065.html

    'Smaller' examples :
    Lawn bowling, New Zealand
    http://edition.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/02/17/lawn.bowls.gary.lawson/index.html
    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/lawn-bowls-team-guilty-of-matchfixing-20100112-m3c6.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bowls-rocked-by-match-fixing-allegation.html

    Take note of the punishment for the guilty party
     
    #44 eaglehelang, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i believe that the representation is fair as the representation should not be related to the performance of the athletes.
     
  6. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Yep. More recently and famously, the spot-fixing episode of the Pakistan cricket team on their tour of England last year, and the massive fallout that saw almost all their team members eventually removed from the game. That made the ICC create a stronger and more stringent series of checks and balances, empower a Task Force with more teeth, as well as a system for reporting, and actioning, that would help clean up the game to a large extent. The ICC at one stage even went so far as to take the chief honcho of the PCB aside for a chat to let him know that they would have to consider suspension of the PCB as a full member of the ICC, if the PCB didn't get smart pronto.

    Recommended reading:
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/story/481330.html
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/story/486024.html


    Glossary:
    ICC: International Cricket Council
    PCB: Pakistan Cricket Board
    Task Force: self-explainatory.
    Teeth: What the BWF is sorely lacking.
     
    #46 cobalt, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  7. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    IMHO, we should discourage anyone who act dishonestly (like practicing fraud). If players agree to fix matches, we spectators would surely feel that we have been cheated/swindled watching them play. :eek::eek::eek:

    We want to watch a real match, not a 'pretend' match.
    .
     
  8. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Good observation! :D
    You will also notice that phrases like "honourable and sportsmanlike" are subjective, and are subject to interpretation. Any action based on this phrase could easily be contested in court, if necessary. CBA would just love to embarrass BWF if such a situation ever came about. The phrase only has value for those who conduct their professional lives in alignment with such universal values. Not easy. To illustrate: have you ever seen a player refusing a point he knew he earned because of a linesman's incorrect call?

    Regardless, the first and correct action would be to ascertain and prove beyond reasonable doubt that the reason for walkover (injury/sickness etc) is a valid one. A doctor's certificate is usually considered sufficient "evidence."

    In top-level professional sports, doctors recommendations are always guided by the player's feedback on his/her condition i.e. muscle spasm, weakness in recurrent injury areas etc. and guided by the maxim that prevention is better than cure. On what grounds can the BWF take disciplinary action?

    Coming to the reason why I started this thread under Rules/TournamentRegulation/Officiating...
    because I believe here is where the weak link is to be found.

    There has to be a reason (or reasons) why CBA does the shady stuff it does. It is also linked to it's objectives. It is actually operating strictly (legally) within the rules and regulations as set out in the BWF handbooks. What CBA does may be contrary to the spirit of playing a game, but is not breaking any rules or laws!

    So, if you want to put an end (or control more effectively) the antics of the CBA, where would you look for answers?
     
  9. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    My apologies to remove part of your posting.

    What I would like to ask is, why CBA? It is just because CBA is able to place more players in the advanced stages of the current competitions? I don't remember who posted an article here in BC, where Rudy Hartono discussed the 'strategies' employed to win international tournaments. If CBA is employing similar 'strategies', it means they learned from the more experienced powerhouse(s).

    If the walkovers are perceived to be a problem, then the responsible organization/parties has to find a solution. To my understanding, to solve a problem, one has to be able to find the root cause. Maybe the root cause is known, but at the moment, has no resources to resolve the situation or to implement the solution.


     
  10. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    apple with apple?? Don't have to, each crime is unique. But sometimes you can judge the seriousness of the fault by looking at the other crimes.
     
  11. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    If I have to choose only 1 party to blame for the whole thing, unfortunately it has to be BWF. Just look at what LYB said and done over the years, it's like the criminal is boosting about his raid to the world. It's like he's saying "lookie lookie BWF, you don't mind if I do this way, do you?" and BWF reply "of course NOT mr LI, be our guess, just do what you like to do"
     
  12. Chayady

    Chayady Regular Member

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    One thing that can be investigate more as being not "honourable and sportsmanlik" is the motive behind the wo/retire. I believe "trying to influence the outcome of the match" will fall perfectly in "not honourable and sportsmanlik" category. In this case BWF have to investigate whether the wo/retirement by China players will have any influence to the outcome of the match/next match. Looking at the modus operandi it looks very obvious to me that it will influence the outcome of the next match.
    LBY already confessed that he asked his player to give the match to get a better chance for his other player to win olimpic gold medal. This can be use as an evidence. To get more evidence maybe bwf should hire private investigator or even ask Assange if he has any recording about this :)
     
  13. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    No apologies needed! :D:D:D It helps to drive attention to the subject. I will try and answer you in 2 parts.

    1. I will not deny that Rudy Hartono or some other person may well have advocated some 'strategies' to ensure Indonesia (or whichever country) maintain a stranglehold (or at least a dominating position) in the game. I don't personally know of this for sure, but I have read other posts on other threads from respected BCers maintaining the same claim. But that does not mean that CBA necessarily 'learnt' from the others in this regard. There are plenty good brains and strategists at CBA and the relevant Ministry of Sports (or whichever Government department the CBA answers to) and it has been clear for a long time now that CBA has chosen its own unique way to ensure their dominance. I would not condone the actions of the past, as much as I would not the actions of the present. But to obtain justification for your misdeeds by quoting some else's misdeeds, is to my mind, feeble. To quote Mahatma Gandhi, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Now CBA finds itself in the enviable position of dominance of the sport. They usually have some of the top 2, 3 or even 4 seeds in almost every tournament they decide to participate in. To a rational mind, the CBA should be the organisation with the least necessity of trying to gain questionable advantage. And yet it is almost always (over the past few years) the CBA who has done this. However, as has been also spoken of in this thread, it could be some other association in the future, who gains ascendancy over everyone else. It happens to be the CBA at present and in the immediate past, and that is why they are always front and centre of these discussions, naturally! :D

    2. The root cause (or set of causes or issues) is what we are driving to determine. Many BCers have a pretty good idea of all or some of the root, and hopefully their contribution here will help in driving attention to the key issues. (the OG timeline & qualification guidelines are obviously one of them.) As for resources, my personal opinion is that they are not unobtainable or extravagant, and that the ends (cleaning up our game and making it fair and open to every participant) certainly justifies the means!

    What are your thoughts?
     
  14. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Talking about INA and CHN teams in the 1970's.

    It was reported that Rudy Hartono was not keen/interested to face the great Tang Xianhu.

    It's just that. There wasn't any 'match-fixing' involved.


    'Match-fixing' occurs when 'pretend' matches are played against teammates; Not when matches are not played against opponents. There is a difference.

    :):):)
    .
     
    #54 chris-ccc, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  15. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Have you ever watched any demo matches?
     
  16. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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  17. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    But surely, if BWF does mind, they could restrict the number of entries per countries to 2 only, as TwoBeer suggested, for example.

    Is it the case that other countries don't want to do it, or that they can't do it? What's the main moral judgement here? That the audience is betrayed? Well, who puts the audience there and earn money? As far as these countries are concerned, they've the matches they need to play. Most have the views of individual events, while some countries like CHN takes a team view. They compete at a completely different level, but still nothing illegal is done, I don't think.

    If money for the tickets is the concerned, maybe organizer (is it BWF) can demand the countrY(ies) doing the WO pay back the audience in a prorate fashion, compensating their loss.
     
    #57 raymond, Sep 27, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2011
  18. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Sure. But don't get me wrong. Demo matches do show us the skills involved (in Badminton).

    But I wish to go further than that... I am not only interested in the players' skills, but also in their fighting spirit. :D:D:D
    .
     
  19. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    Read the lawn bowling example. New Zealand was found guilty of intentionally losing Thailand. Canada made the complaint. The 'captain' of NZ team was suspended/banned for 6 months & had to pay a fine.

    The point is not just about walkover & withdrawal but intentionally losing/throwing a match. If BWF is as tough as lawn bowling association, hahaha, Korea would not have dared to put up the weird line up during TC(singles playing doubles & vice versa). Or all the Oscar winning performances we have seen :p

    Bribe? Can happen of course but not in this China vs China walkover cases.
     
  20. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Rudy Hartono was Indonesia's top player and also regarded at that time as the greatest badminton player. As far as I know, he was not ALLOWED to play against Tang Xinfu - not that he did not wanted to. As for his interview on strategies, you'll have to search the post that should be buried somewhere in the forum.

    But he should have heard the talks on how he won the World Championships... ;)

     

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