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The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by cobalt, Sep 24, 2011.

  1. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Nope.. I am a badminton fan, not an acting fan, And I like good badminton players regardless if they are from China, Indonesia, Malaysia or Japan :).. I think people get to emotionally biased because they do not like the fact that their favourite local heroes are not as good as the top chineese athletes, and then dodges the "real" issue by blaming the "WOs" etc.. focusing on the symptom, rather than the problem.. The sympton is lots of China vs. China matchups because the other nations are too weak, that all of them put togheter still are no match for China. You could do a team match for China vs. the rest of the world put together today.. and team China would still be the favourites to win!! That my friend is probably the core issue why indo/mas fans are pissed, much more than a few WOs, injury or no injury aside.
     
  2. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    To add to that it is also hard to draw to many conclusions based on "strange" team-mate vs. team-mate matches.. Playing without coaching and playing someone who knows your game and reads you like a book after countless of hours on court together is quite a different beast..
     
  3. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Jeeeez.....why does it have to go around the circle again??? Posters please do the home work before shooting blanks
     
  4. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    I think, (with due respect) there is a bit of an obtuse viewpoint happening here. The information is out there for anyone/everyone to access, if they wish to. Why is the onus on me to "prove?" Much as the onus need not necessarily be on LYB to "prove" that he is not manipulating, and that the onus needs to be on BWF to "prove" that either a walkover is clean or not, and thereby provide a clean chit.

    There is a frequency of meet-ups between players of the same country, not just China. Most matches (with extremely rare exceptions) are played. Quite a few go to 3 games. The ones that don't go to 3 games, are generally those where the levels of skills are clearly different, or where one of them just has a bad day. Once again, the distinction is that these are not Walkovers or Withdrawals. The pattern is being set by one country only. You can visit www.tournamentsoftware.com anytime you like and choose any past tournament to inspect the results, and draw your own conclusions.
     
  5. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Beats me. Some were not present when earlier posts were posted and they didn't read from page one. Most arguments are repetitions. That's why I suggested to have a like and dislike button or poll to get a consensus. Full stop.
     
    #145 nokh88, Oct 2, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  6. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    http://literallyeverything.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-to-prove-youre-not-witch.html
     
  7. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Sat 10/1/2011 - Taufik HIDAYAT - Tommy SUGIARTO : 10-21 15-21
    Thu 11/12/2009 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-13 21-6
    Thu 1/17/2008 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-18 21-16
     
  8. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Is this what you were interested in?

    For top 10 seeds who are committed to SS and SSP events: $5000 over and above the statutory penalties applicable.
    http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=35827

    Other withdrawals, breaches of code of conduct, team withdrawals etc: penalties ranging from $250 to $1000
    http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=35810

    Hope this helps :)
     
    #148 cobalt, Oct 2, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2011
  9. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Surely you can do better?
    Walkovers and Withrawals, remember???
     
  10. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    ...exactly what we were hoping to discuss on this thread... :D
     
  11. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    You still dont get it do you? Fine, if you want to see BWF doing nothing about it.

    Let me ask, which is harder for LYB inc to face, no rule whatsoever or at least something that they have to get away around everytime??

    And then we can built up some more cases and evidence on the court regarding the match fixing, at some stage there will be some very bad actors and actresses. It will also put more moral/mental pressure on the players (who's performing the match fixing) on the court, and at some stage hopefully someone broke down and say "enough is enough".
     
  12. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Many people here have been questioning the validity of the Walkover syndrome that afflicts CBA players. The argument is that it is bound to happen sooner or later, and that players other countries have also resorted to this "tactic." In light of which, I feel its a good idea to cross-reference a relevant thread here:

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...etired-between-same-country-player-since-2006

    The numbers tell a tale.
     
  13. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    Lets cut that crap twobeer. All along I wrote nothing subjectively about you or anyone else that in defence of CHN WO tactic. If you want to go that road Im up for it mate, I'll leave that to you to decide. But at the moment let me say that your accusation is baseless and not true (And I dont have to defend or prove myself on that). This can happen to any country and I will use the same words.
     
  14. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    3 examples..... over almost four years.... the second taking place 22 months after the first match and the third match 11 months after the second.

    Are you serious? You actually think this means anything?

    PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE AND, BACK AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD
     
  15. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I do not agree with your statement. Unless the purpose of this thread is to attribute the blame to China on everything that is not good.

    As far as I remember, China was not part of IBF yet. Rudi Hartono mentioned clearly about planning the matches with results to position them 'strategically' in the draws. Difference was the spectators were treated with 'exhibition' matches. Maybe this is more acceptable since Chinese players were not involved. :confused:

    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.


     
  16. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now

    .
    I have just posted in another thread, this comment;

    .
     
  17. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    When we watch sports, we want to see players trying their hardest to play their best

    .
    Agree. :):):)

    When we watch sports, we want to see players trying their hardest to perform their best.

    If the players' coaches and/or National Associations tell players to put on a show (like an exhibition/fixed match), many people may not want to watch/follow these matches. Why? Because it's artificial; It is no longer a battle of determination to win and/or showing their fighting spirit to conquer/win over other players.
    .
     
    #157 chris-ccc, Oct 3, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  18. eaglehelang

    eaglehelang Regular Member

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    In that case, how about recent times? Other countries would not dare do it in such frequency & magnitude, as it has serious consequences if found guilty of match fixing. Unless all the various agencies & ministries conspire together up to the highest levels.

    In other countries : If a player keeps giving walkover(how many times already LD did it this year alone?), the player will be questioned. Lets say my country Malaysia, they will get the doctors to take a look & give a report. The public will question, the Sports Ministry will question,National Sports Council & Malaysia Olympic Council will question.
    So, lets say injury not serious enough to warrant those walkovers/withdrawals. The Anti Corruption Agency then will ask the player - Did you take bribes to purposely walkover/withdraw ? The players finances will be checked. Then the coaches will be questioned the same. (The rumor about bookies approaching badminton players was raised before & National Sports Council sent officials to check.)

    With all that pressure, lets say the player didnt have large amounts of money banked in his/her accounts(not counting Swiss bank), neither did the coaches. By then, the issue out in public, nobody believes them
    With all the interrogation & public humiliation, sooner or later the player cant take it anymore & say -> No no, I didnt take bribes, the chief coach forced me to walkover. He said I must allow to my team mate to get ranking points for OG. My team mate also know about it but we dare not go against chief coach, he's influential

    After that, ehem....hue & cry about match fixing & unfairness, bye2 to chief coach, player most likely also.
    If you think it's too far fetched, google Siti Zalina Ahmad, lawn bowling, difference was she refused to give walkover to team mate

    Cobalt, how's the story, like drama eh? ;):D
     
    #158 eaglehelang, Oct 3, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2011
  19. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    That is not the purpose of this thread. Neither is it, as another forumer has crudely suggested, a witch-hunt. Many of us have been trying to look at the situation as it exists, and look for a solution. Please read posts on Page 1 and 3 and elsewhere in this thread. The walkover/withdrawal syndrome is one where China happens to be the leading actor and that is an undeniable fact. It is also a symptom of a larger issue. That is (or should have been :D) the real issue for us to focus upon.

    No form of match-fixing should be acceptable. I have heard about this (what you mention) before as well, and my views do not change. However, do you think one can use an action of the past to justify a continuing action (with bigger consequences) in the present?

    I don't remember where I read this, but... "sometimes in life, we gotta fight for what we want, and what is right." One of the main issues that I have with BWF is that they have been on the whole, a reactive bunch, not proactive. The game is suffering the consequences of that approach.
     
  20. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    i wouldn't worry too much about that. by definition you need 2 from the same country to be able to 'walk over'. that normally not the case after round 1.
     

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