Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Tie Score Dilemma

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by mndtrcks, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. mndtrcks

    mndtrcks Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Information Systems Technician
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    Thank you for all who read and replied about the "illegal service" thread. Here is another issue I've just dealt with the other day during a high school match between our number 1 varsity girls doubles and would like to get your opinion on this issue.

    :confused: My players were down 13-14 (on the third set) when they got their serve back. They scored on their first serve and tied the game 14-14. Since our girls did not say anything and also paused for a few seconds waiting for their opponent to choose what they would want to do in which they did not say anything at all and got into position for the next service. So my girls continued the game first, by presenting the birdie or shuttlecock to her opponent and clearly saying point-14 which a number of people, including myself, heard. My girls won the point and game, or so it seemed. When my girls went to go shake their hands, they immediately said that they were suppose to go to 17. My girls told them they did not say anything when the score was tied 14-14, which they also admitted to both myself and the other coach. The IBF rule states:7.5 If the score becomes 14-all (10-all in women’s singles), the side which first scored 14 (10) shall choose either Law 7.5.1 or 7.5.2: 7.5.1 to continue the game to 15 (11) points, ie not to ‘set’ the game; or 7.5.2 to ‘set’ the game to 17 (13) points.

    Here is the dilemma, the opposing coach's first issue is that her girls were not "offered" a choice when my girls scored and tied the game 14-14. First thing, the IBF rule does not state anything about an "offer to" but "shall" choose whether they would like to play to 15 or 17. Second thing, my girls do not have to say anything either since for one, they were not the first to get to 14, second, they had two serves to win the game at 15 and third, the IBF rule does not say that our players have to say anything when it clearly states that the player(s) who scored 14 first shall choose what they would like to do and third, after both my players and their opponents prepared for the next service, our palyers "thought" that they didn't want to set or play to 17, served, scored and won the point, match and game.

    What player or coach would tell or offer to their opponent if they would like to set and play 3 more points especially when you or your player is "on a roll" or that you have two serves (in a doubles match) to win the game? If the opposing team does not "choose" either play to 15 or 17, where does the game default to? The problem I see in the scoring system in the IBF rules is that there is no "default" to play to 15 or 17 if the player(s) did not choose either one. That is second issue the opposing coach complained about. In my opinion, if my opponent does not say either or the two rules after I tie him at 14-14 and prepares for my service, it is a game up to 15 and if I win that service, I win the game. After arguing all the way up to their high school AD (Athletic Director), our girls were forced to play to 17 and lost 17-15 match and game. Our team still one the game 13-2 but the point of their match was not about winning, but what is fair. I felt whole heartedly that we followed the rules and that they should have won their game and second that their coach should teach his players more about the rules of the game because if those girls were to play in a tournament, they will most certainly lose the set or game if they did not choose either to "set" or play to 15. Thank you for your time and hope to read your response on this issue.

    http://www.intbadfed.org/Portal/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=96&cnt=1&action=1280x1024
     
  2. merlin

    merlin Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    Canada
    An interesting dilemma.

    My opinion only: when tied at 14, it is an option to set, otherwise it is still played to 15. Therefore, failing to set means the game is played to 15. I think you are right.
     
  3. SteveStanley

    SteveStanley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    I think this is just a misunderstanding, I assume that there was no referee, that's why this thing happened.

    In my opinion, once they tied at 14 - 14, both teams have to talk and understand wether it's set to 15 or 17. I wouldn't continue the game before this is clear, especially in the "no referee" situation.

    I don't know if there is such thing as a default "set to 15" when both teams just keep quiet, on the other hand, no one can presume that the game should go to 17.

    So, in this case, no one is right and no one is wrong. Just my opinion.
     
  4. krantikt

    krantikt Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Santa Clara
    Agree with Steve

    I agree with Steve here, that, in case of there being no refree,
    it is usually the norm for the players to ask their oppnents if they want to set or not.

    Atleast thats what I and most people in the club do when we play social matches. As wether to set or not. Obviously in any IBF matches, they would not be conducted without a refree, and the refree would not let the match continue without a decision on wether to set or not.

    IMO, and from the experience of playing with many others without a refree, the person holding the serve asks wether the opponents want to set or not.
     
  5. mndtrcks

    mndtrcks Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Information Systems Technician
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    I can see if there was a scoring judge during a match where the judge can ask both players to set or to play to 15 and I also understand that the sport of Badminton is a "gentleman, gentlewoman" sport where the player who catches up to and tie the game as 14 may ask the other opponent whether they would like to "set" or play to 15, but the IBF rule does not stipulate the person who catches up from behind to tie the game at 14 have to offer the opponent to "set" or play to 15. IBF only states in their rule is that the player(s) who got to 14 first "shall" choose to either "set" or to play to 15 (IBF rule 7.5, 7.5.1, and 7.5.2). So it is up to them to say it not the opposing team who caught up to them to tie the game. My players chose to not say anything which is not illegal under the IBF rules and their opponents did not say anything either and got in their position to recieve my players serve in which we that point and supposed the game. If the players who got to 14 first and does not choose either "set" or play to 15 and prepares themselves for the next service, where would the default lie?

    There should be a stipulation added in the scoring system rule that if no choice was made from the players who got to 14 first and prepares for the next service, that the game will default to whomever gets to 15 will win the match or game. Now how often would this issue arrise in a game? To me, very rare. The fact that I teach my players if they tie 14-14 to always "choose" to "set" or if they would like, to play to 15 is imbedded in their brains. Take in consideration that your opponents aren't mind readers and will most, if not all of the time not give you a benefit of the doubt.
     
  6. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    5,436
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Construction
    Location:
    Leeds, UK
    When the players read out the score, Did they the 14-match point-14? If they did, they I would assume then for the opposition to have heard it, and accepted that as being the match point. Or they should have said "setting" or "Three".

    It is a difficult situation however, and as you say the rules are not clear in what should happen, as In international competitions there is always an umpire to ask "are you setting". Email the IBF and ask them.
     
  7. Dill

    Dill Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2003
    Messages:
    1,921
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Lazy git (my coach can verify this)
    Location:
    Glasgow, Scotland
    I always thought it was the option of the first team to get to 14 which is always your oponents, once you get to 14 which means a tie you ask them what they want to set to and they either choose 1 or 3.

    Simple as that.

    Since it is the oposition that states what to play to and they have not opted for the three then the assumption is straight through (1 point).

    But you know what they say about assumption!
     
  8. mndtrcks

    mndtrcks Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Information Systems Technician
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    Besides myself, there were few others who saw and heard my player actually said' "point-14". When the others were watching the game like myself, my player paused for a moment waiting for the team to choose something. When she noticed nothing was said and they're opponents went to prepare for the serve, she immediately presented the birdie or shuttlecock, called out the loud and clear "point-14", served, rallied for a few shot and won the point which should have been the match and game.

    For instance, if I were to reverse the tables and asked if my players called "set" and they did not, that would be against them and of course accept the loss. There is nothing to defend them with. It was their fault for not choosing what they wanted to do when they reached the tie. I would then tell all my players either after the game or the next practice to teach and make them remember that if that situation happens again, they would be smart enough to call "set". The way my players conduct themselves on the court wherever they are will reflect on me and how I taught them to play and act.
     
  9. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    LuckyTown
    I understand the problem, and it clearly isn't fair, mainly due to the miscommunication.
    Normally, in our social plays, when it's match point, we present the birdie high in the hand, and we know it's match point. If that is the case, the opposing party knew it would be match point. If the opponent later says that the match should go to 17, it's very unfair and very sore loser spirit.
    On the other hand, the one getting to 14 last should always ask out of courtesy if it should go to 15 or 17, even if it's not wrote in the rule book.

    Miscommunication is really bad stuff... :eek:
     
  10. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,908
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Cannock, UK
    It doesn't default to anything. The serving side should wait until the receiving side have made the choice.
    If the serving side are "on a roll" it is in their own interest to call the score and say "Are you setting?"
    I think you should teach the players to ask the question.
     
  11. Papa Smurf

    Papa Smurf Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    22
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    bay area
    I think personally those players shouldve known better. Their coach shouldve taught them better. I mean put yourself in the other girls shoes. What would you do if your opponents just said that you didnt set, so they won the game. I'd kick myself silly for forgetting to set, and then i'd suck it up, shake their hands and kick myself some more. It is my responcibility to know the rules, espeically something as crucial as that. To make it worse, its not even like they DIDNT know the rule they couldnt set, because they clearly knew that they could.
    To most of us, we usually ask because we dont expect the other side to forget, and when most of us GET asked, we already know whats happening and what we want to do. If someone asks you, "would you like to set?" and its a surprise to you...well i dont have to finish this sentence. Its understandable if youre playing recreational....but competition level badminton? (I assume because its high school the competition level is good). I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but if you have to be reminded when to set, you might as well have ur opponents make youre line calls for you too, let them tell you if its in or out.
     
  12. Mag

    Mag Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,342
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    One simply doesn't serve until one knows if the other side sets or not.
    I am sure that your players will never do this mistake again. ;)

    The rules assume the existence of an umpire of scoring judge, so the situation you describe isn't really covered officially. But in one sense both sides have faulted, therefore a "let" would be the most salomonic way out of this deadlock. Replay the point. (What? Too late for that? :D )
     
    #12 Mag, Apr 14, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005
  13. Benasp

    Benasp Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    canada
    your girls has to want to what the other wanna go (1 or 3) if not it's weird, both team are not respecting the rules
     
  14. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,360
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    What does "salomonic" mean?

    *edit* checks dictionary:

    Salomonic, Salomonian - of or as of Soloman

    Note the capital letter ;)
     
    #14 Gollum, Apr 14, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005
  15. mndtrcks

    mndtrcks Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Information Systems Technician
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    In the IBF rules:If the score becomes 14-all (10-all in women’s singles), the side which first scored 14 (10) shall choose either Law 7.5.1 or 7.5.2:. My girls got their serve back which means they had two serves and was down 13-14. My girls caught up and tied the game 14-14 with a second serve to go. The IBF rule above states that the player(s) who got 14 first (their opponents) must choose. My girls had no say in it and waited for their opponents to choose something. They did not say anything and prepared for the next serve. She then presented the birdie or shuttlecock to her opponent, called the score loud enough spectators and several coaches heard it and served. We got the point and my girls should have won the game. You say my girls were not respecting the rules, where in the IBF rules did they not respect it? My player waited for them to say something. Isn't that respect for the opponent instead of calling match point and serving it immediatley? Is it my fault that their coach did not teach them how to set or when to set? My girls aren't mind readers and does not look for the best advantage for their opponents to win. This is still a competition and if your opponent(s) do not know the rules, then who's fault is it?

    As a responsible coach, and if the tables were turned in this situation and my girls did not call set and loss that point, there would be no going back. My girls would have lost because they did not follow the rules as stated above in IBF 7.5 and it would be my fault because I failed to to teach them properly. Please tell me where my girls disrespect the rules according to the IBF rules?

    Thank you to all for your opinions on this issue. I greatly appreciate all your comments.
     
  16. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2002
    Messages:
    2,908
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Cannock, UK
    Well, what's done is done.
    More importantly,
    What will you do for the future?
     
  17. Mag

    Mag Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,342
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    Oh come on, your players were playing without an umpire, right? That means that the responsibility lies with the players, and thus common sense (or call it badminton etiquette if you like) is required. This applies to a lot: line calls, service faults, shuttle changes, drink and towel breaks, etc etc, and certainly the situation you describe.

    You say that your girls know the rules. In that case I think your girls were a little naughty. They didn't ask their opponents if they want to set or not, but rather waited silently for a little while and then got ready to serve. Maybe your girls were thinking that either a) the opponents have forgotten to set or b) the opponents don't know the rules. Both alternatives are unsportsmanlike, and THAT is something that you, as a coach, should address! Your girls should not have served until they were sure if the other pair wanted to set or not, in order to avoid this exact situation!
     
  18. Benasp

    Benasp Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2003
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    canada
    that what i mean, IMO it's quite weid to continue serving without knowing what going on, your girls should have say, hey come on chose 1 or 3. But that a sad thing, it's common that kids doesn't know the exact rules and get cheated by other.

    one exemple, i was playing mixed and the other team made a double touch and returned to serve like nothing, so my partner said, what are you doing ??? i simply say, i thinked that you wasn't knowing the rule, what a cheater
     
  19. mndtrcks

    mndtrcks Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2003
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Information Systems Technician
    Location:
    Bay Area California
    First off, if you care to look at the IBF rules there is nothing that says the players who caught-up to tie the game at 14-14 can say anything. Second, they waited long enough for their opponents to get ready for the next serve. Third, if you hear your opponent call point-14, would you not know to put your hand up and say something like, "can we please set to 3." or at least say anything at all. So your telling me, that all the years you played badminton, all your opponents offered to set to 3? An opponent you played who ties you and gets ready for his point serve to win the game did not think to say, "would you like to set to 3?" It would be you at fault for not saying anything and not your opponent if you got ready to prepare for his serve and lost the point. Are going to tell your opponent, "oops...I forgot to set to 3. Can we play on until 17?" What if your opponent says, "Read the rule book. There is nothing in there where I have to offer you a "set". I win because you did not say anything and prepared for my service in which I served and you lost the point." Your opponent had enough "etiquette" to wait long enough for you to do some type of action like raising your hand to choose or play straight on because you went to go and prepare for your opponents serve. Is it your opponents fault that you forgot and did not have the commonsense to say something? Or are you going to merely say that was unsportsmanlike because I forgot and you should have reminded me? Maybe the next time you play that person again you might want to call every umpire needed because you might forget your score, what lines you are playing, and that he has no etiquette and very unsportsmanlike and I don't know my rules and my opponent will not remind me during the game.

    I would like to illustrate again what you are not seeing and it is that there is nothing in the rulebook for the player to catches up and to tie the score to say anything and that makesthem naughty? If your talking about etiquette, they (my players) chose not say anything and WAITED long enough for them to get ready for the service, present the shuttlecock, CALL THE SCORE LOUD "POINT-14", to serve and for their opponents to ANSWER the serve. During any of those times they would had enough time to raise their hands to call "set". If you feel that is not "etiquette" and "sportmanslike" enough because there was no umpire, then maybe you should ask the IBF for another stipulation stating that the person who catches up to tie the score must offer their opponents a choice. I would love to hear the response you get back from it.
     
  20. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    Messages:
    777
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    LuckyTown
    mndtrcks, I think mag is right. Etiquettes are NOT written in the rule book, but it is something that should be taught.
    Where I play, the one getting last to 14 ALWAYS ask to how much to set.
    But in your case, maybe both have forgot. It is not a matter of waiting long enough for the other party to ask. It is common sense that play shouldn't continue until we know to how much that playoff is set. Assuming that the play should be set to 1 is wrong.

    If you want my interpretation of the rule, here it is:
    7.5 If the score becomes 14-all (10-all in women’s singles), the side which first scored 14 (10) shall choose either Law 7.5.1 or 7.5.2: 7.5.1 to continue the game to 15 (11) points, ie not to ‘set’ the game; or 7.5.2 to ‘set’ the game to 17 (13) points.

    This rule 7.5 means that a DECISION has to be made on how much to set BEFORE continue playing, and this decision pertains to the one who got 14 first.
     
    #20 Loopy, Apr 14, 2005
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2005

Share This Page