Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Weight training and first day back to badminton

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Phil, Sep 13, 2002.

?

Do you strength/weight/cardio train?

  1. Yes, regularly

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Yes, occasionally

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. No, I don't need to

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. No, I don't have the time/willpower/whatever

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. MetalOrange

    MetalOrange Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    home
    just look up old issues of muscle power/muscle & fitness. yes, i remember back in the days when i rode a lot too and weight trained before that. mike mentzer and his brother are the proponents of the heavy duty training. of course, times a changing...but even my bodybuilder hero dorian yates in the 90's trains intensely and adheres to the philosophy of less is more.

    they even have the more advanced training philosophy, the one-rep max!

    personally as a regular guy, i like the 3-rep max.

    my experience and based upon tons of reading materials...train for 30 minutes on heavy training days and 40-45 minutes max on regular training days, that's it. you may do one session in the morning and another in the afternoon. i have done 3 hour sessions too twice daily but that was when i started out and was really crazy about training but once i hit the point of diminishing returns...i try to summon every ounce of knowledge i have in training and reading and distilled it into the 30 mins (heavy training days) and 40-45 mins (light training days). try it, you'll be in and out within the hour!

    there's so many principles...i have stopped a long time ago so my memories betrays me a bit. this is all for now.

    good luck!
     
    #101 MetalOrange, Dec 2, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  2. jafffa

    jafffa Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Uk
    5 seconds? I take around 2... I always thought it was better to have a shorter time with badminton because it translates into more power... Might be completley wrong. I train with weights once a week and eat a protein rich(ish) meal after. If i leave... around 2-3 days rest till my next badminton session then i find that my muscles have recovered sufficently. And i've seen big gains in my power over the last month and i know i can go even further.
     
  3. Kevin402can

    Kevin402can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    I have tried as slow as 10 seconds up and 5 down but I don't enjoy that so I sped up a bit. I really don't think that the speed that you move the weight has any relation to how your muscles develop. If you exercise a muscle it gets stronger. Training for a sport allows you to harness that new strength and turn it into speed. Even if you move the weight as fast as you can that would be nowhere close to how fast you need to move for badminton.
    I move the weight slowly so that I can use less weight and I feel that less weight and a more controlled movement results in a reduced chance of injury. If the two seconds is working for you and you enjoy it stick with it, just about any protocol will work.
    regards
    Kevin
     
  4. MetalOrange

    MetalOrange Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    home
    i think continous burn (5-10 per rep) is for muscle endurance while the 2 seconds per rep is optimum for regular baddy training.

    cheers,
     
  5. jafffa

    jafffa Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2008
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Uk
    This was my train of thought also. I'm no fitness expert but i i know what the previous poster meant by converting strength into speed... my theory was that you build both muscle and nerve responses by strength training then improved the nervous system through practicing the actual movement itself.
    As for the speed of lifting the weight... i guess faster would be less musculer intense but more nervous intensive... someone correct me please
     
  6. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Customer server network Support
    Location:
    Australia, Brisbane
    ok guys your all really really really lost!!!!
    If your going to gym and do weights do it properly. Dont half ass and dont muck around. If you take too long to do a full workout then your not working out as intense as you should be. I can pump through a gym session doing 3-4 excersises with 3 sets in each excersise in under half an hour.
    Train 1 body part per day which will help you to concentrate and isolate more individual body parts which will give you better gains. This split program should run over 4 or 5 days depending on how busy you are.
    You can split it however you want. Me and my brother split ours into Monday -chest tuesday - biceps/triceps wednesday - back thursday - legs friday - shoulders.

    Next thing which is really really important is the speed you train your reps at. IT IS VERY VERY EFFECTIVE AND IMPORTANT SO DO NOT THINK IT ISNT! Prolonged slow movements will train size and endurance strength. Which will help your badminton about as much as using a spoon for a racket would help you!
    You need short explosive movements! badminton is a very very explosive sport. Requiring bursts of power during different shots and stages.

    EG When doing bench press. Bring the weight down to your chest over 2-3 seconds then a quick powerful burst up on 1 second. Down 1.2.3 UP!!! Down 1.2.3 UP!!!!! As you get stronger and faster drop it to 2 seconds. You dont really want to go down on 1 as you need to slow it a bit to make sure your holding a good resistance against the weight. Otherwise youl just drop the weight and bounce back up which wont use the full potential of your muscle.
    This timing should be applied to every muscle excersise you do. For badminton its the most effective way to train weights.

    I could go on for hours!! But at work haha any questions just fire away.
     
  7. Kevin402can

    Kevin402can Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    I don't think that I am really lost. Looking at your workout you are in the gym 5 days a week for half hour at a time, I figure that is 2-1/2 hours total. I spend 1/2 an hour a week. Are you confident that your way of working out is 2-1/2 times more effective?
    Muscles really aren't clever enough for rep speed to be important. When a muscle fiber fires it fires totally, it is like a switch, on or off. Faster movement is accomplished by firing more fibres at once. If what are saying is true then a 1 second rep is too slow to be of any use because that is way slower than you need to move to play badminton.
    When you are lifting a weight you recruit fibes, then when they fatigue you recruit other fibers. Put the muscle under enough load so that is fails in 60 to 90 seconds and you will get stronger. Isometric exercises work and they involve no movement at all. How is that explained if rep speed is important?
    regards
    Kevin
     
  8. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Customer server network Support
    Location:
    Australia, Brisbane
    im not trying to put you down at all i just tryna steer you guys in the right direction. Reading above you obviously dont fully understand muscle mechanics. Speed intensity and the amount of work you do affects your muscles in lots of different ways.
    Saying muscles are not clever enough for rep speed to be of importance or affect them lol..................
    And its not as simple as your muscles contain a bunch of fibres. When 1 fatigues it picks another and so on. Your muscles contain 2 types. Fast twitching and slow twitching muscles. Depending on how you train or how you make a certain movement will depend on which fibres you use within that muscle.

    EG fast explosive movements will require more of your fast twitching fibres. Badmintons fast explosive movements will require more of your fast twitching fibres. To train these fibres you need fast explosive movements.

    Slow twitching fibres are the opposite. When trained in the gym these fibres are used more for size gains and bigger bulkier muscles.

    and in regards to the length of time spent at gym..That has absoluitely nothjing to do with how much more affective my gym is then yours. The intensity, type of excersises, amount of excersises, individual body, recovery time, dietry plan and much more needs to be compared between you and me before you can either bother.

    Not tryna put you down once again...but you need more than a bit of your personal opinion and speculation. Hard facts and understanding the human bodys muscle mechanics helps.
     
  9. MetalOrange

    MetalOrange Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2009
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    home
    jafffa

    exactly! let me reiterate, i've trained intesely and learned just as much through books, with training partner or whoever brought their nuggets of wisdom to the gym and distilled and condensed my experience to a routine that is time-efficient and results-oriented. oh, just to point out my purpose for this kind of training isn't geared for bodybuilding contests.

    as i said, i do intense heavy training for 30 minutes; use the split system. on lighter days, go for 40-45 workout. conversely, on heavy days i train for explosiveness (big weights, 2-second reps x 3) and on lighter days i train for muscle endurance (light to medium weight, 3-second reps x 12-15.). then, there's a periodic training for me, which i'll do the concentration curls, concentration squats, negatives, whatever for 10-second rep x 8 -12 and my ultimate goal is to really tax it by tearing it them (muscle fibres) down and building it up.

    i also have 2 running days, which mainly consists of short sprints (10-20 metres for sets) and usually sign it off with 8 laps around the oval (at 5 minute/mile). for how long? same deal, 45 minutes tops and i'm out. i learned from experience by collecting datas from guys i used to trained with and coaches and kids like myself back then when i was so much younger and arrived at the conclusion that a 45 minute workout, be it in the gym or the track is optimum.

    what exercise(s) is best for baddy? there's so many to enumerate. i'll just mention one essential for the arms and one essential for the legs based on PERSONAL (not from trainers) experience.

    1. seated 'pullovers' (two hander) with heavy enough weight to to do a 2-second rep x 8 x 3 sets. translates very well into smashing action.

    2. medium weight for 'lunges' 3-second rep x 8 x 5 sets. translate best for retrievals (particularly late retrievals) and reflex jump smash.

    kind regards,
    MetalOrange
     
    #109 MetalOrange, Dec 5, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2009
  10. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2008
    Messages:
    744
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Customer server network Support
    Location:
    Australia, Brisbane
    looks like a solid training program metal orange ;)

    a few solid excersises in their aswell!
    great to see :D
     
  11. Mark A

    Mark A Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2005
    Messages:
    6,096
    Likes Received:
    85
    Occupation:
    Stringer, Panda reseller, whatever else comes up
    Location:
    St Helens, UK
    For reference, my training regime:


    Monday - shoulders/small triceps:

    12 sets of presses - free bar, Smith machine, or dumbells (varies);
    4 sets lateral raise;
    4 set shrugs;
    4 sets rear raise;
    10/12 sets triceps, always a pushdown and usually an overhead.


    Tuesday - back/big biceps:

    4 sets chinups;
    12 sets pulldowns, with various bars to get full coverage;
    12 sets of various rows (machine, T-bar, dumbells, cable);
    15 sets curls - straight bar, cable high-low, preacher machine, cable ropes.


    Weds - chest/big triceps:

    6/4/3 sets of flat/incline/decline bench resp. - free bar, lately;
    4 sets cable crossovers;
    15 sets triceps - more detail than Monday.


    Fri - legs, small biceps:

    9 pyramid sets 45 degree leg press, finishing on 405 lbs + sled for 10 reps;
    5 sets leg extension;
    10 sets curls - again, more detail than with small biceps.

    Note the absence of calves as my gym doesn't have any calf machines (but does have a deadful pec deck and some kind of hip flexor machine which, for me, can both go:mad:). Cardio... the 15 min ride to and from the gym, and bi-weekly 3 hr badminton sessions;).
     
  12. ben S&C

    ben S&C Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    uk
    Hi i've been reading this discussion with some interest, just to give you some backgroung i'm a strength and conditioning coach from the UK and currently work with a number of players 2 of which are ranked in the top 80 in the world (one is playing in the all england next week).
    I think that its important to recognise that lifting heavy weight is not going to get you "massive" all my players are looking to improve power and maximum strength. Using low repetitions (1-6) will not put on body mass and will also increase strength and power, two key qualitites. 6-10 repetitions will increase muscle hypertrophy with anythin above this targeting muscular endurance. If you want to get strong the only way to really do this is to lift heavy. I would also strongly advocate the use of the olympic lifts (under proper supervision) as an excellent way of increasing power, for me if you're going to use one excercise to increase your speed and power on court you should be deadlifting and deadlifting heavy.
    Anyway that was just a little bit on it, if you'd like some more theory or would like a copy of some of the stuff i'm doin with my players message me and i'll reply
     
  13. stansilas4

    stansilas4 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    us
    personally i like to combine cardio/speed work training with weight training. I do more of the former... I think its more important to be agile rather than being bulk and stiff
     
  14. ben S&C

    ben S&C Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    uk
    Hi squireter this is a really good point you've asked about. have you done much weights? with regards to the right age to start lifting it is a complete misnoma that lifting when young affects your growth plates this is based on some research papers from the 80's which appeared to find this, however there is a large amount of research that now supports weight training in children and indeed shows that puberty is the MOST important time to do weight training given the increased amount of testosterone in the body, i regularly work with children between 9 and 12 in the gym and it is definitely benificial to there performance, done safely and with good technique. Sand C is common in american high schools and rightly so. If you have any more questions or want more information please ask me.
     
  15. Laowai

    Laowai Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    I have been doing weights for about half a year now once or twice a week. I do have few questions. First, should I start using a weight lifting belt for squats and dead lifts? I can dead lift around 45-50 kg reasonably comfortably (80-85% of my body weight). Also, how much weight (as percentage of body weight) should I be aiming for common exercises such such as bench press and dead lift? I know this highly dependent on your general fitness but as a general guide for a male in his late 20's. I usually do 3 sets of 10.

    I do enjoy doing weights, I feel stronger since starting weights and I believe my posture has also improved. I have only put on about 2-3 kgs though.
     
  16. ben S&C

    ben S&C Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    uk
    asd a rough guide laowai (based on experience alone) for 1 rm values i would be looking for a badminton player (at the top level) to be lifting 2times there own body weight on deadlift and 1.5 times there own body weight on back squat. Bench press is a bit of a strange one as most badminton players are rubbish at it really most of mine can do in the region of 1-1.2 times there own body weight on bench. For 10 reps i would suggest you be aiming to get to 1 time your own body weight and 1.5 times your own body weight on deadlift. With regards to a weight belt i wouldn't reccomend one as a large part of squatting and deadlift is core strength and using a belt definitely detraxts from this. Also just as a very quick guideline for you lee chong wei's preformance data showed that he can squat 2.8 times his body weight.
     
  17. Laowai

    Laowai Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2008
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Australia
    Thanks Ben, great information there. I will have to start increasing my weights a bit I think. I have a long way to go! I am pretty cautious when doing weights and try to make sure I am doing things correctly.
     
  18. Yeongzhun

    Yeongzhun Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2010
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Singapore
    i was just wondering , do you train both hands or just your badminton hand ???
     
  19. ben S&C

    ben S&C Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    student
    Location:
    uk
    Hey you want to train both sides of your body, equal weight, repetitions, everything should be the same.
     
  20. kaitamasaki

    kaitamasaki Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Richmond
    Nice to see some interest in weight training for badminton purposes!
    I myself feel that my technique isn't too bad, but my strength is definitely lacking. I'm therefore doing some heavy lifting at the moment (Rippetoe's Starting Strength) such as squats, bench, and deadlift with low reps and high weight to get some core strength first, because I feel I've been too weak my whole life and have never really done any other sports.

    I'm also doing the exercise where you extend your arms and hold this baton with a long string and a weight attached at the bottom and you continously curl your wrists to roll the weight up... very very tiring for the forearm but hope it helps my power.
     

Share This Page