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What will be Kwun's newest camera?

Discussion in 'Badminton Photography' started by Cheung, Sep 4, 2009.

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What will be Kwun's newest camera for badminton photography?

  1. Canon 7D

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  2. Nikon D700

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  3. Micro 4/3rds camera

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  4. None of the above but it will be Nikon

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  5. None of the above but it will be Canon

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  1. weeyeh

    weeyeh Regular Member

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    Guys, how about moving the m4/3 vs 4/3 vs APS* vs FF discussion to a new thread?

    I'd like to discuss Kwun's next new camera. Any chance he may be looking at the M9?? Shortage of telephoto means he needs to go closer to the action (I bet he wants that). May have to revert to MF/pre-focus though :p
     
    #61 weeyeh, Sep 8, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  2. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    ah yes you are right on 4/3's mirror Taneepak :) 4/3 does have mirror box but micro 4/3 does not have.
    now back to my question again, does micro 4/3 has the performance, image quality and the price worth compared to dslr (ff, aps-c, and the like).
     
  3. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    so far no votes for the micro 4/3 camera.

    Perhaps I should have put the title as "what should be......."
     
  4. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    If you use the best super high grade lenses for the Four Thirds, I believe they will out-perform the Nikon or canon's APS-C format with their dedicated lenses.
    I am not judging from my own experience as I have no 4/3 or APS-C or FF cameras/lenses to test and compare. I have glanced through some reviews that have compared say the ED 7-14mm F4.0 with Canon's and Nikon's APS-C equivalents, and the 4/3 came out on top. You may want to seek out some professionals doing wild life or architecture who use the 4/3 with such super high grade lenses. Olympus makes 3 classes of lenses. The lowest is the kit lenses, next is the high grade, and the top is the super high grade, the latter ostensibly better than Canon's L lenses.
    If you use a top 4/3 camera, the E-3, and any one of the following super grade Olympus lenses, they will out-perform the APS-C cameras.
    Olympus Super Grade lenses:
    1. ED7-14mm F4.0
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0
    5. ED150mm F2.0
    6. ED 300mm F2.8
    Pls note all the zooms have just one constant max. aperture at any focal length.
    One of the strengths of these super high grades is their incomparable defocusing or bokeh, as all such lenses are specifically designed for this feature, making the main subject stand out or appear more prominent.
    Some of you may think this is incredulous. These lenses also have prices that are incredulously high! Custom made Super high grade lenses are also available, even if it is for just one lens. Custom made lenses are not available for the lower two grades.
     
  5. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    The lens' quality does affect the bokeh like how natural look the bokeh is (5 aperture blade will have worse than 8 aperture blade) but this does not make the the dof thinner. as far I know dof is affected by how far from the subject and the aperture. while yes 2.0 is considered fast but 4/3 has crop factor of 2. to frame same image between 4/3, aps-c, ff using the same focal length, aperture and with different distance to subject to get same frame, will it have the same dof? I have not check any calculation but my guess, between 4/3, aps-c, FF and using same focal length, same aperture but different distance to subject.. FF will have the smallest dof and 4/3 have widest dof.
     
  6. Gladius

    Gladius Regular Member

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    That is way over-generalising. You have been reading too much into the promotional brochures and as you have admitted you have never used these lenses or any modern DSLR, so how can you say that the statement you put up as being entirely true and unfettered? :rolleyes:

    Firstly, 4/3 sensors have an equivalent FOV of 1/2 that of a FF 36x24mm sensor.

    Which means, in effective focal length, a 7-14mm is approximately 14-28mm in focal length.

    Likewise for the other lenses you listed above.

    BOKEH - is a function of a few factors. (assuming same sensor format)

    i) The focal length of the lens
    ii) The maximum aperture of the lens
    iii) The number of aperture blades
    iv) The curvature shape of the aperture blades
    v) The relative placement of the aperture blades within the lens.
    vi) The diffractive properties and light path of through the lens.

    For i) and ii), for the 4/3 format, you cannot literally compare to the a APS-C camera sensor. There needs to be a conversion to a standard FF focal length and FOV for closer (again not exact nor direct) comparison.

    A conversion to of the lenses you listed from 4/3 to FF format FOV :

    1. ED7-14mm F4.0 -> 14-28mm
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0 -> 28-70mm
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0 -> 70-200mm
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0 -> 180-500mm
    5. ED150mm F2.0 -> 300mm
    6. ED 300mm F2.8 -> 600mm

    And equivalent series avaliable for Canon/Nikon APS-C would include the following:

    1. Sigma 10-24 f/3.5 ->15-36mm
    2. Canon 17-55 f/2.8 ->28-88mm
    3. Tokina 50-135 f/2.8 ->75-202.5mm
    4. Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 -> 150-450mm
    5. Canon 200 f/2.0 IS L -> 320mm
    6. Canon 400 f/2.8 IS L -> 640mm

    Now, on paper, the 4/3 lenses have a bigger aperture in general. However, at equivalent FOV and focal lengths, the effect of this aperture on bokeh completely changes. In fact, the DOF of a f/2.0 lens of a 4/3 system is somewhat like a f/4 lens of a FF 36x24mm system. Likewise for an APS-C system. A f/2.0 lens generates a DOF similar to a f/3.0 or f/3.2 lens for equivalent FOV.

    I loosely mention similar as there is NO DIRECT comparison and just the general characteristics which have been observed.

    So for your list of lenses, it would in effect look something like the following :
    (corrected for focal length and 'equivalent apparent DOF aperture' )

    1. ED7-14mm F4.0 -> 14-28 f/8
    2. ED 14-35mm F2.0 -> 28-70 f/4
    3. ED 35-100mm F2.0 -> 70-200 f/4
    4. ED 90-250mm F2.0 -> 180-500 f/4
    5. ED150mm F2.0 -> 300 f/4
    6. ED 300mm F2.8 -> 600 f/5.6

    And for the list of equivalents I listed :

    1. Sigma 10-24 f/3.5 ->15-36mm f/5.3
    2. Canon 17-55 f/2.8 ->28-88mm f/4.48
    3. Tokina 50-135 f/2.8 ->75-202.5mm f/4.2
    4. Sigma 120-300 f/2.8 -> 150-450mm f/4.2
    5. Canon 200 f/2.0 IS L -> 320mm f/3.2
    6. Canon 400 f/2.8 IS L -> 640mm f/4.2

    I cannot see how "superior" these 4/3 lenses are even on paper when you do the correlating approximate conversions. In fact, at the very wide end and the longer focal lengths, the shallow DOF of the APS-C or FF lenses of equivalent focal lengths trump the Zuiko's both in focal length and aperture.

    So, where and how did you come to your conclusions I really have no idea. :rolleyes:

    You should just sell off your 'old' cameras and start shooting with some of these modern DSLR's to fully comprehend what the other people have been talking about in these threads and to debunk the various myths which you seem to have been perpetuating. :cool:
     
  7. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I am sure if you want to find out you can google some test reviews of the Olympus Super High Grade lenses. Here is one and I am sure there are many www.zs2.hu/csgzsfoto/technical/lenses/.
    BTW, Olympus' Super High Grade lenses won the European EISA "Europeon Professional Lens 2006-2007. This may be a real surprise to many of you who may ask how could such small format 4/3 lenses win a professional lenses award in Europe?
    Re bokeh, this means simply out-of-focus. The out-of-focus can be in front of the main subject or behind. A narrow depth of field from a longer focal length may make the out-of-focus stand out more, but is not a criteria of bokeh. One of the top bokeh lens in the world is the Leica wide angle lens 35mm F2.0 Summicron, for its excellent pleasant defocus both in front and behind the main subject. Such excellent bokeh is more a work of art plus science in which a specially designed spherical aberration is incorporated. Secondly, it also needs a diaphragm that can be round. Out-of-focus must be pleasant and tasteful at near the maximum aperture.
     
  8. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Here is a suggested new setup for Kwun:
    1. Panasonic GF1 with adaptor for 4/3 lenses
    2. Zuiko 14-35mm f2.0
    3. Zuiko 35-100mm F2.0
    4. Zuiko 150mm F2.0
    5. Leica Summilux 25mm F1.4
    These are good from the badminton hall to shooting in available light w/o flash, plus almost in any environment. They may be expensive but they are winners of the Europeon Professional lenses in 2006-2007 award, itself that these lenses are not as bad as many would have us believe, unless the judges do not know anything about photography.
     
  9. Mini Me

    Mini Me New Member

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    taneepak, every post you've made in the badminton photography forum has been off topic, irrelevant and a complete waste of bandwidth. perhaps you should be posting in one of the many measurebator forums at dpreview.com. you'll find lots of magazine-review experts to keep you company there.
     
  10. weeyeh

    weeyeh Regular Member

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    Despite being quite a fan of the Olympus E-P1..

    Do people still pay attention to EISA Photo awards? They seem to give more awards every year than products launched. Okay, I exaggerated but just look at the number of awards each year... Best Professional Camera, Advanced Camera, Camera, SLR Camera, Multimedia Camera, ...

    I doubt Kwun will get the monstrosity that is that E-P1 (or GF-1) mated to a 35-100/2... at 1.7kg, the E-P1 is a mere 20% of the weight, the GF-1 is even less.

    Kwun, how about a hint of what you will like in your new new camera?
     
  11. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    what do u expect from him? nothing but tripod, rich people, expensive equipment, some keen part time pros, the latest micro fourth third and tons of the information that we can find from the WWW! lol........
     
  12. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    While bokeh translated to blur but its actually not the blur, bokeh is actually the quality of the blur.
    well I guess both of us need photography lesson? I will attend the lesson for learning the new technology 4/3 (without the word Micro) still has mirror box and on the next lesson someone will learn the actual of bokeh.. by the way, still no answer to my question?
    As far as I know panasonic's AF for the m4/3 is excellent but I don't think it still able to match 1D3. Olympus EP1 AF is out of question though.. it still far from Panasonic, let alone.. dslr (or do I need to go to minute detail, FF.. APS-C etc.. those using phase detect) lens might be good but we need good body as well.. or are you suggesting that we don't need technology since technology only make people's mind dull. lets everyone take badminton photo using fantastic lens but also with AF that not able to keep up the badminton.. or all shall using manual focus.

    ah, so I'm not the only one
     
  13. ae86trueno

    ae86trueno Regular Member

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    I have not test with my own hand the Panasonic m4/3 in real life situation, let alone testing it for Badminton. However I do believe its not on par with 1D3 yet or will ever match 1D3. So I'm curious base on what you suggest Kwun to replace his 1D3 with Panasonic GF1 + these lens?
    If Im on Kwun's shoes, these are few point which I need to consider:
    Have I invested lens in 1 maker?
    If I ever jump to other maker, is the jump worth enough?
    Looking at my current setup, just from top of my head I remember Kwun use 1D3 and 135L 2.0.. Does the next gear better or worse than my current gear? what are the pros and cons?
    Does my gear unable to keep up or does not have the function needed to do the job?
    Am I paid pro photographer or just serious hobby?
    and the list can go on.. but you see my idea here. and if I have to make the choice.. I will choose none the above, yes 7D is out and seem to have quite a few bell and whistle but does it warrant enough to replace my 1D3? nope I don't think so, I will stick with 1D3.
     
  14. Marky

    Marky Regular Member

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  15. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    This is a real surprise. It is even smaller and lighter than the E-P1. I suspect the price will be rather high, but it will be a good second camera for reportage and some candid photos for professionals with an artistic bent looking for that decisive moment.
     
  16. drifit

    drifit Moderator

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    :D
    at last, Leica announced their new camera.
    if i am not mistaken, there is someone claim Leica settings new standard.
    no such thing as full frame 35mm film based, aps-c format. kind of misnomer, mumbo-jumbo format.
    Leica has just introduced 35mm full format M9 and aps-c format X-1. Leica is following the leaders, which are Canon and Nikon, but quite far behind. :D:D
     
  17. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    there is nothing wrong with leica! it was just being pushed to the situation by somebody!
     
  18. drifit

    drifit Moderator

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    will Cheung create a thread "will taneepak buy Leica M9?" and let us poll? :D
    X1 is fighting against Sigma, which is not keen by our taneepak. furthermore, M9 is created so the previous M series lenses are compatible. since taneepak has the M series lenses, it is the opportunity for him get a new gadget!
    either badminton or normal daily photography can be shared with us. let us all learn a bit or two from the master.
    kwun may consider the X1, the flash is so cute. :p
     
  19. red00ecstrat

    red00ecstrat Regular Member

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    hey man! that's the view finder!!!:D;):p
     
  20. drifit

    drifit Moderator

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    dear master Red,
    is the built-in flash. :eek:
    #taken from dpreview.
     

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    #80 drifit, Sep 10, 2009
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009

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