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who's to blame for the match throwing?

Discussion in 'Olympics LONDON 2012' started by kwun, Aug 1, 2012.

?

who's to be blamed for the match throwing?

  1. The players are at fault for throw matches

    2 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. BWF is to blame for implementing group structure

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. no one / other are to be blamed.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. both players and BWF are to be blamed

    4 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    How do you feel about the Nazi guards at the prison camps who cooked millions of Jews rather than risk their own necks. By your logic a lot of innocent Germans have been wrongly convicted. Sorry pal just because you may feel a decision is too difficult doesn't give you a free pass when it comes time to face the consequences of your choices.

    And yes I know that there is a big difference between a prison camp guard and a national team badminton player. But, then again we aren't talking about jailing or executing these players are we?

    I share the argument that it is likely the 'bosses' who are responsible so then by that logic the whole team should be DQ'd.
     
  2. Fan888

    Fan888 Regular Member

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    I'll blame mostly on the coaches, whom most likely ordered it. They should be fired for disgrace to their countries. Obviously, on the players themselves for carrying out the shameful acts.
     
  3. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    There is a study conducted called the Milgram experiment that talks about this very thing and the majority would do what AlanY stated so not that unbelievable.
     
  4. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    If they are given a yellow/black card and found guilty by bwf/referee for it then yes i find your example to definitely be considered cheating if not then no. Again sorry you don't like the word cheating
     
  5. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    I'm actually aware of the Milgram experiment. But, the point isn't whether people would make such a choice is believable or unbelievable. The question is whether based on such a study you believe the fact that the majority would do so makes it ok and a free pass on any consequences should be given?
     
  6. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Reminds me of Kate Winslet in The Reader... there is an instinctive knowledge of being in something wrong, but where are the options under those circumstances? Put another way, are you willing to lose everything that means anything to you (no matter how ephemeral), just to protect a single truth?
     
  7. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    It brings it into question yes. Although I think consequences need to be paid just whom?
     
    #47 craigandy, Aug 1, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  8. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    what if the players got presented with 2 simple choices either do as you told or you already played your last match.
    of course, there may be some just too eager to comply as well.
    So, just banned them all?
     
  9. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    Yes ban them all. Sooner or later they would rebel against being put in such a position and either the BWF would evolve to better look after the player's interest over and above those of the national associations or the players themselves would form their own group to look after their interests.
     
  10. pwimsey

    pwimsey Regular Member

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    facts:
    1. players did bring badminton into disrepute
    2. tactical play incentivised by round-robin structure.
    3. round-robin format rarely used in badminton tournament play.
    4. known issues with round robin format in uber/thomas cups
    5. tactical play often used when player takes a respite when trailing in 2nd game after winning 1st, evidenced by error-strewn play and resulting in crowd booing.
    6. throwing games just takes this to the next level.
    7. difficulty in telling when game is thrown, e.g. china-china matches or japan-taiwan wd which was also suspicious, but not conclusive.

    reaction to disqualification:
    1. can be considered unfair to players when format implicitly allowed throwing games. players have never experienced round-robin format for individual events
    2. unfair to WD pairs that qualified on merit, but had to fight in quarter-finals instead of progressing directly to semi-finals. i guess BWF had to arrange some matches for people that had tickets for tonight's quarter-finals.
    3. taiwan and denmark WD unlucky to not play for bronze, as they are stronger than Russia/Canada that will be likely playing for bronze, if not hastily patched up draw.
    4. unfair to audience as they now get russia-rsa and canada-aus WD quarter-finals, which i doubt anybody would pay to watch. (Sidenote: anyone want WD bronze match ticket?)

    alternatives to disqualification:
    1. fine 4 pairs and associations heavily, ie. $1 million. this will also point out that responsibility is also shared by association, not just players
    2. as it is, LYB and the korean coaches can escape sanction by denying responsibility.
    3. use fines to develop badminton in smaller nations.
    4. punishing associations and players will more directly change badminton culture. I remember conversation with chinese players at worlds: they were incentivised by monetary reward for winning, same for coaches. So heavy monetary fines will influence their incentives.

    possible solutions for the future:
    1. double elimination to allow smaller nations more matches, but still strong incentive for winning.
    2. randomised or better performance based draws if round-robin, like archery, fencing.
    performance metric can be how quickly you crush opponents. this will minimize time-wasting among other things and make players give 100%.
    3. apply heavy punitive fines for match throwing and unsporting behaviour.

    PS.
    Many people blame china for match-fixing, and they are the leading offender. However, other countries also do it. The difference is that China are so strong that they have more opportunity to fix matches and take advantage of the rules. After seeing recent events, I think others would have done the same given the opportunities.

    PPS.
    Anyone want WD bronze match ticket? Having seen Russia and Canada WD, I am not convinced they are stronger than club MD, which is pretty sad.
     
  11. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Yes, ban them all. Why not?

    For the players:
    If you cannot show integrity, you deserve to live with the consequences. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. When you swim with the sharks, you are either a shark or shark-food. You have a choice: get out of the water. Your pride or your integrity.

    For the coaches:
    Everything the players do on court is your responsibility. You are answerable. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. You make the decisions and the strategies, you are answerable for them. You have a choice: show integrity even in the face of intimidation. If you do as was done unto you, you will face the same consequences. Your pride or your integrity.

    All of them chose pride, ego, greed, arrogance, believing they could to some extent get away with it. They players paid the price for the decisions made by their coaches. Now it's time for the coaches to go down.

    It's up to the BWF to make sure the ones who ordered the play don't escape.

    And right now, it's up to the BWF to make the long overdue transition into the professional world of sports, as a tough, professional association run by tough professionals with integrity: a tough association we would all be proud of. Now, that would be a change!
     
  12. pwimsey

    pwimsey Regular Member

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    facts:<br>1. players did bring badminton into disrepute<br>2. tactical play incentivised by round-robin structure.<br>3. round-robin format rarely used in badminton tournament play.&nbsp;<br>4. known issues with round robin format in uber/thomas cups<br>5. tactical play often used when player takes a respite when trailing in 2nd game after winning 1st, evidenced by error-strewn play and resulting in crowd booing.<br>6. throwing games just takes this to the next level.<br>7. difficulty in telling when game is thrown, e.g. china-china matches or japan-taiwan wd which was also suspicious, but not conclusive.<br><br>reaction to disqualification:<br>1. can be considered unfair to players when format implicitly allowed throwing games.&nbsp;players have never experienced round-robin format for individual events<br>2. unfair to WD pairs that qualified on merit, but had to fight in quarter-finals instead of progressing directly to semi-finals. i guess BWF had to arrange some matches for people that had tickets for tonight's quarter-finals.<br>3. taiwan and denmark WD unlucky to not play for bronze, as they are stronger than Russia/Canada that will be likely playing for bronze, if not hastily patched up draw.<br>4. unfair to audience as they now get russia-rsa and canada-aus WD quarter-finals, which i doubt anybody would pay to watch. (Sidenote: anyone want WD bronze match ticket?)&nbsp;<br><br>alternatives to disqualification:<br>1. fine 4 pairs and associations heavily, ie. $1 million. this will also point out that responsibility is also shared by association, not just players<br>2. as it is, LYB and the korean coaches can escape sanction by denying responsibility.<br>3. use fines to develop badminton in smaller nations.<br>4. punishing associations and players will more directly change badminton culture. I&nbsp;remember conversation with chinese players at worlds: they were incentivised by monetary reward for winning, same for coaches. So heavy monetary fines will influence their incentives.<br><br>possible solutions for the future:<br>1. double elimination to allow smaller nations more matches, but still strong incentive for winning.<br>2. randomised or better performance based draws if round-robin, like archery, fencing.<br>performance metric can be how quickly you crush opponents. this will minimize time-wasting among other things and make players give 100%.<br>3. apply heavy punitive fines for match throwing and unsporting behaviour.&nbsp;<br><br>PS.<br>Many people blame china for match-fixing, and they are the leading offender. However, other countries also do it. The difference is that China are so strong that they have more opportunity to fix matches and take advantage of the rules. After seeing recent events, I think others would have done the same given the opportunities.<br><br>PPS.<br>Anyone want WD bronze match ticket? Having seen Russia and Canada WD, I am not convinced they are stronger than club MD, which is pretty sad.
     
  13. groovyshot

    groovyshot Regular Member

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    This is certainly an interesting scenario for the badminton community. Scandalous really.
    BWF's modus operandi is taken by the badminton community as business as usual, however for the non-badminton community this is aberration of fair play.

    It is interesting as a community that we've becoming conditioned to ignore fair play. Given that the IOC has exposed these practises, how is BWF going to tweak the system? This may be a good thing. At least badminton has made the news, rather than a footnote on the back pages of someone's blog.
     
  14. Ton-Min-Bad

    Ton-Min-Bad Regular Member

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    I'd like to see personal consequences within the BWF. They did a bad job by installing this group system and need to take responsibility. Which means some of them have to give up on their jobs.
     
  15. thunder.tw

    thunder.tw Regular Member

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    Not me. I'd like to see the head of the organisation turfed after all he is the one ultimately responsible for the BWF. Other than that I don't see how a witch hunt within the organisation would be all that constructive. Likely they'd just offer up some poor scapegoat and then tell themselves and the community they've resolved the matter and continue on under the same sold system.
     
  16. fanyy

    fanyy Regular Member

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    If the players get punished, then the BWF deserves the same. Not fair if only one side gets the blame.
     
  17. Loafers

    Loafers Regular Member

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    100% on the players.

    From what I heard, they were warned, but still continued. If this is true, they deserve to be disqualified.

    If you don't like the group stage, don't participate next time.

    Totally disrespectful for the fans and people who paid good money to watch "professional" players play.
     
  18. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Just found this...

    [video=youtube;I7Os3pL-v_U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Os3pL-v_U[/video]
     
  19. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    I have been saying this for years...that for those nuts/idiots who defend match fixing, yet never get off their butt to fly overseas to pay to see a match and pay accomodation, only to punch the keyboard sitting drinking 2 beers butt naked scratching their balls, now go tell that to the real fans who pay big buck that it is okay to see a match fixed, especially at OLY with UK hotels all time high...good for the spectators to boo and cry bloody foul, and the noise heard around the world. These clowns are real arrogant to think they can pull this stunt in OLY with all eyes including international medias watching and what a timing for Dr Rogge to be in the stadium...it is in the stars and it is meant to be....karma.
     
  20. gjoo888

    gjoo888 Regular Member

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    The players and coaches are not blameless, but the BWF put a system in place that rewarded losing. What did they expect to happen?
     

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