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  1. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    Sat 10/1/2011 - Taufik HIDAYAT - Tommy SUGIARTO : 10-21 15-21
    Thu 11/12/2009 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-13 21-6
    Thu 1/17/2008 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-18 21-16
    3 examples..... over almost four years.... the second taking place 22 months after the first match and the third match 11 months after the second.

    Are you serious? You actually think this means anything?

    PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE AND, BACK AWAY FROM THE KEYBOARD

  2. #155
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    I do not agree with your statement. Unless the purpose of this thread is to attribute the blame to China on everything that is not good.

    As far as I remember, China was not part of IBF yet. Rudi Hartono mentioned clearly about planning the matches with results to position them 'strategically' in the draws. Difference was the spectators were treated with 'exhibition' matches. Maybe this is more acceptable since Chinese players were not involved.

    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Step 1: acknowledge that a problem or issue actually does exist.
    Step 2: desire to do something or contribute something towards the resolving of that problem.

    However, you just took one step forward and two steps back!! To "accept the way it is" even if it is patently against rules, spirit, sportsmanship, norms, (even that very country's norms just 2 decades back) is to give legitimacy to the very problem we are discussing!!!

    In your statement "...benefits for China with their team spirit" you could just as well replace "China" with "XYZ" and the statement would still be true. However, have you noticed that no other country has attempted historically, to "institutionalize" such behaviour that way China seems intent on doing? So, is China right in their approach because it justifies their specific ends, and everyone else is wrong and be damned with them?

    There are 2 distinct approaches to this issue:
    1. Condone the arrogance and misdeeds that are being foisted on the game.
    2. Find a way to stop it by creating a system of checks and balances within the framework of rules of the BWF.

    Do you advocate the first approach?

  3. #156
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.
    .
    I have just posted in another thread, this comment;

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    The question is: Why hasn't BWF done anything about the Walkovers?

    The answer is: BWF allows their National Associations to decide.

    We have heard that some National Associations give less support (or even no support) to players wishing to compete as independent players. They want all Badminton competitors to be under their association's umbrella. This is just hard to believe; It's more politics than sports.

    IMHO, BWF should not allow their National Associations to decide.

    BWF should focus on Badminton as a sport for Badminton sake, and help make Badminton a top sport to follow.

    It is no wonder that BWF is still struggling to find sponsors to kick off Badminton as a great sport to follow.

    Actually, funny enough, I find more sponsors giving their money to National Associations, more than to BWF.

    Let us ask ourselves why is this the case ???
    .

  4. #157
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow When we watch sports, we want to see players trying their hardest to play their best

    Quote Originally Posted by Chayady View Post
    From your comments, i am curious about your age. Are an adult or a primary student?In any law (not only sports law), all the rule are enforcable. If this kind of thing still confuse you, i think you should go back to school and listen carefully to your teacher. There is a process called investigation. If bwf commite want to investigate, i am sure that they can prove it quite easy. I.e. Tapping on all the conversation by china team. Take this case as example how investigation can be done: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...8.01.2011_.pdf
    .
    Agree.

    When we watch sports, we want to see players trying their hardest to perform their best.

    If the players' coaches and/or National Associations tell players to put on a show (like an exhibition/fixed match), many people may not want to watch/follow these matches. Why? Because it's artificial; It is no longer a battle of determination to win and/or showing their fighting spirit to conquer/win over other players.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 10-03-2011 at 07:38 AM.

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  6. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I do not agree with your statement. Unless the purpose of this thread is to attribute the blame to China on everything that is not good.
    .......
    In that case, how about recent times? Other countries would not dare do it in such frequency & magnitude, as it has serious consequences if found guilty of match fixing. Unless all the various agencies & ministries conspire together up to the highest levels.

    In other countries : If a player keeps giving walkover(how many times already LD did it this year alone?), the player will be questioned. Lets say my country Malaysia, they will get the doctors to take a look & give a report. The public will question, the Sports Ministry will question,National Sports Council & Malaysia Olympic Council will question.
    So, lets say injury not serious enough to warrant those walkovers/withdrawals. The Anti Corruption Agency then will ask the player - Did you take bribes to purposely walkover/withdraw ? The players finances will be checked. Then the coaches will be questioned the same. (The rumor about bookies approaching badminton players was raised before & National Sports Council sent officials to check.)

    With all that pressure, lets say the player didnt have large amounts of money banked in his/her accounts(not counting Swiss bank), neither did the coaches. By then, the issue out in public, nobody believes them
    With all the interrogation & public humiliation, sooner or later the player cant take it anymore & say -> No no, I didnt take bribes, the chief coach forced me to walkover. He said I must allow to my team mate to get ranking points for OG. My team mate also know about it but we dare not go against chief coach, he's influential

    After that, ehem....hue & cry about match fixing & unfairness, bye2 to chief coach, player most likely also.
    If you think it's too far fetched, google Siti Zalina Ahmad, lawn bowling, difference was she refused to give walkover to team mate

    Cobalt, how's the story, like drama eh?
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 10-03-2011 at 07:51 AM.

  7. #159
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I do not agree with your statement. Unless the purpose of this thread is to attribute the blame to China on everything that is not good.
    That is not the purpose of this thread. Neither is it, as another forumer has crudely suggested, a witch-hunt. Many of us have been trying to look at the situation as it exists, and look for a solution. Please read posts on Page 1 and 3 and elsewhere in this thread. The walkover/withdrawal syndrome is one where China happens to be the leading actor and that is an undeniable fact. It is also a symptom of a larger issue. That is (or should have been ) the real issue for us to focus upon.

    As far as I remember, China was not part of IBF yet. Rudi Hartono mentioned clearly about planning the matches with results to position them 'strategically' in the draws. Difference was the spectators were treated with 'exhibition' matches. Maybe this is more acceptable since Chinese players were not involved.
    No form of match-fixing should be acceptable. I have heard about this (what you mention) before as well, and my views do not change. However, do you think one can use an action of the past to justify a continuing action (with bigger consequences) in the present?

    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.
    I don't remember where I read this, but... "sometimes in life, we gotta fight for what we want, and what is right." One of the main issues that I have with BWF is that they have been on the whole, a reactive bunch, not proactive. The game is suffering the consequences of that approach.

  8. #160
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Lets say my country Malaysia, they will get the doctors to take a look & give a report. The public will question, the Sports Ministry will question,National Sports Council & Malaysia Olympic Council will question.
    i wouldn't worry too much about that. by definition you need 2 from the same country to be able to 'walk over'. that normally not the case after round 1.

  9. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.
    That we can wait for a long time...until Europe, N and S America embrace baddy and TV money flows into badminton, baddy will remain an Asian sport, so prize money will remain pittance and endorsement except for LCW and LD hard to come by. On WO and injury, how is BWF going to discipline/penalize CHN?, how do you prove injury is fake and not real?, or if a player throws his/her game?
    As long as CBA allows LYB to continue doing so, even if Li Ling Wei (represents CHN OlY council), CHN media and public disagree, this will go on.
    If baddy reaches the plight of table tennis where the rest of the world is irrelevant and TT is totally dominated by CH that it becomes not a matter of who in the world can beat a chinese player, but rather which CHN MS and WS player will crown 1-2-3 in WC and OLY, then we may see less or no WO or if LYB is replaced by someone who abolish this practice. Who knows, after LCW/PG retire, CHN MS badminton domination may resembles more like table tennis.
    Since there is no 2nd MAS player to play bodyguard to LCW, maybe LCW should consider PG as his bodyguard. So, how much is it worth to take out CJ or CL from OLY12? Lose a SF or final in SS to PG if LCW meets PG, for PG to get into the top 4, that would deny CHN of 1 spot in OLY12. Lose a battle, swallow some pride, lose some SS dollars, but hopefully win the war and the biggest reward

  10. #162
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Meanwhile, an update on the spot-fixing controvery that engulfed world cricket and more specifically, Pakistan cricket last year.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan...ry/534770.html

    Spot-fixing trial set to begin

    Excerpts:

    Salman Butt and Mohammad Asif begin their trial at a criminal court in London on Tuesday, more than a year on from the spot-fixing allegations that engulfed the cricket world during Pakistan's troubled tour of England.

    The former Pakistan Test captain Butt, 27 on Friday, and fast bowler Asif, 28, will appear at Southwark Crown Court with the possibility of a custodial sentence awaiting them if deemed guilty.

    ...The fact the case is being heard at a crown court shows the seriousness of the allegations facing the defendants, with crown court being the more senior of the criminal courts.

    The players have already been punished by the ICC (International Cricket Council) after a disciplinary hearing in Doha, Qatar. There, the three players were each banned from the sport for at least five years. Butt received a further suspended five-year ban and Asif was handed a further two-year suspended sanction.

    ...Asif, the right-arm swing bowler, and left-armer Amir quickly became one of the most potent new-ball attacks in world cricket. Butt, meanwhile, was a respected opening batsman and was seen as an articulate, diplomatic captain by the British media on that tour last year, prior to the allegations.

    The most important aspect at stake during the trial is for cricket as a whole and its integrity, honesty and transparency, according to sports lawyer Max Eppel of McFadden's LLP, who has worked on cases involving cricket and football among others.

    "The most important thing for any fan of sports is to know the teams are going out there on a level playing field," he said. "If there is any hint of corruption, the sport could be destroyed. Ultimately, any kind of hype about a criminal court trial is bad publicity for a sport, but if there are good things to come out of it, it is that the sport will get a chance to see any ramifications there are for ever getting involved in this sort of stuff."

  11. #163
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    I don't remember any other country in recent years that produced enough players able to advance to final stages of the competitions as China. The only country capable to place various players in advanced stages of competitions was Indonesia back in the 80's with Liem Swie King, Lius Pongoh, Hastomo Arbi, Sugiarto in singles and other outstanding doubles pairs, and in the 90's with Suprianto, Kusuma, Wiranata, Susanto, etc... In men's singles, unfortunately I don't see Indonesian/Danish players in the finals and from Malaysia, LCW seems to be the 'lone warrior'. I don't even want to mention the women's side - let's hope Taiwan and Thailand continue with the support.


    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    In that case, how about recent times? Other countries would not dare do it in such frequency & magnitude, as it has serious consequences if found guilty of match fixing. Unless all the various agencies & ministries conspire together up to the highest levels.

    In other countries : If a player keeps giving walkover(how many times already LD did it this year alone?), the player will be questioned. Lets say my country Malaysia, they will get the doctors to take a look & give a report. The public will question, the Sports Ministry will question,National Sports Council & Malaysia Olympic Council will question.
    So, lets say injury not serious enough to warrant those walkovers/withdrawals. The Anti Corruption Agency then will ask the player - Did you take bribes to purposely walkover/withdraw ? The players finances will be checked. Then the coaches will be questioned the same. (The rumor about bookies approaching badminton players was raised before & National Sports Council sent officials to check.)

    With all that pressure, lets say the player didnt have large amounts of money banked in his/her accounts(not counting Swiss bank), neither did the coaches. By then, the issue out in public, nobody believes them
    With all the interrogation & public humiliation, sooner or later the player cant take it anymore & say -> No no, I didnt take bribes, the chief coach forced me to walkover. He said I must allow to my team mate to get ranking points for OG. My team mate also know about it but we dare not go against chief coach, he's influential

    After that, ehem....hue & cry about match fixing & unfairness, bye2 to chief coach, player most likely also.
    If you think it's too far fetched, google Siti Zalina Ahmad, lawn bowling, difference was she refused to give walkover to team mate

    Cobalt, how's the story, like drama eh?

  12. #164
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    I fully agree with your quote. But I also believe 'you should fight with the right tools'.

    From my understanding, China is the only country still investing a lot of time and resources in the development of badminton. In my view, China should be able to field a team to compete with the rest of the world and still come out with a respectable result.

    The WO are a fact, but don't the organizers request the players to be verified by the tournament doctors as well? If the current rules are not enough, then the responsible organization should draft stricter rules for control. What I do not agree is to state that a player 'cheated', when the player did everything according to the existing rules.


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    That is not the purpose of this thread. Neither is it, as another forumer has crudely suggested, a witch-hunt. Many of us have been trying to look at the situation as it exists, and look for a solution. Please read posts on Page 1 and 3 and elsewhere in this thread. The walkover/withdrawal syndrome is one where China happens to be the leading actor and that is an undeniable fact. It is also a symptom of a larger issue. That is (or should have been ) the real issue for us to focus upon.

    No form of match-fixing should be acceptable. I have heard about this (what you mention) before as well, and my views do not change. However, do you think one can use an action of the past to justify a continuing action (with bigger consequences) in the present?

    I don't remember where I read this, but... "sometimes in life, we gotta fight for what we want, and what is right." One of the main issues that I have with BWF is that they have been on the whole, a reactive bunch, not proactive. The game is suffering the consequences of that approach.

  13. #165
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    I think we have been around long enough and seen a lot of things in the badminton world. LYB said something in public, but so did Rudi Hartono. Korean players were caught in the past when playing against team mates. There may be other issues which I can't recall at this moment. What means to me is, this being true then badminton might be viewed and managed similarly by the powerhouses.

    On the other hand, I love to watch the China National Games and CBSL. I am curious about the prizes in CBSL.


    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    That we can wait for a long time...until Europe, N and S America embrace baddy and TV money flows into badminton, baddy will remain an Asian sport, so prize money will remain pittance and endorsement except for LCW and LD hard to come by. On WO and injury, how is BWF going to discipline/penalize CHN?, how do you prove injury is fake and not real?, or if a player throws his/her game?
    As long as CBA allows LYB to continue doing so, even if Li Ling Wei (represents CHN OlY council), CHN media and public disagree, this will go on.
    If baddy reaches the plight of table tennis where the rest of the world is irrelevant and TT is totally dominated by CH that it becomes not a matter of who in the world can beat a chinese player, but rather which CHN MS and WS player will crown 1-2-3 in WC and OLY, then we may see less or no WO or if LYB is replaced by someone who abolish this practice. Who knows, after LCW/PG retire, CHN MS badminton domination may resembles more like table tennis.
    Since there is no 2nd MAS player to play bodyguard to LCW, maybe LCW should consider PG as his bodyguard. So, how much is it worth to take out CJ or CL from OLY12? Lose a SF or final in SS to PG if LCW meets PG, for PG to get into the top 4, that would deny CHN of 1 spot in OLY12. Lose a battle, swallow some pride, lose some SS dollars, but hopefully win the war and the biggest reward

  14. #166
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I fully agree with your quote. But I also believe 'you should fight with the right tools'.

    From my understanding, China is the only country still investing a lot of time and resources in the development of badminton. In my view, China should be able to field a team to compete with the rest of the world and still come out with a respectable result.

    The WO are a fact, but don't the organizers request the players to be verified by the tournament doctors as well? If the current rules are not enough, then the responsible organization should draft stricter rules for control. What I do not agree is to state that a player 'cheated', when the player did everything according to the existing rules.
    Agreed on all your points, and in fact, they have been discussed ad nauseum on the forum, and most relevant points have also been brought up on this very thread. You sound genuinely interested; maybe you should take some time off to read the entire thread. There are many balanced points of view available here, as well as those that subscribe to common sense (always a good compass!) and ethics.

    And that includes the "players cheated" issue as well...

  15. #167
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    ....snip....

    After that, ehem....hue & cry about match fixing & unfairness, bye2 to chief coach, player most likely also.
    If you think it's too far fetched, google Siti Zalina Ahmad, lawn bowling, difference was she refused to give walkover to team mate

    Cobalt, how's the story, like drama eh?
    Sounds like "real life" to me, eaglehelang!!

    Remember what happened in that landmark He Zhili case; eventually she was ostracized and had to re-settle in Japan. But it didn't make damn difference to the power of China in table tennis - they just got stronger!

    Which is why we must examine changes, adaptations and additions to BWF regulations and processes if we are to find a lasting and workable answer to this...

  16. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    BWF should at least investigate by - 1) insisting an independent doctor/s check on the injury. If toe injury, do a scan, have 2 to 3 different doctors check. If back injury,scan. If fever, take temperature. If all the doctors said, fine, no injury what, ehem...... interrogote : Why you say injured when no muscle tear,etc, this is not 1st time. You say pain, why only pain why you play your team mate? What stunt you trying to pull here? Ok, that was a bit too police detective drama type

    Next time another walkover, do it all over again, make it harder for any Oscar winning displays.
    If it was the Lawn Bowling Association, they would have meted out fines long ago, and questioning the player, the opponent, coaches.(refer previous pages involving decision made on intentionally losing, though they played)
    This is the best suggestion so far in this thread. Thumbs up for your brilliant idea.
    I am sure scanning will not take more than 1 day to do. It is effective to prove any injury.
    Wishing that BWF is reading this post.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Many people here have been questioning the validity of the Walkover syndrome that afflicts CBA players. The argument is that it is bound to happen sooner or later, and that players other countries have also resorted to this "tactic." In light of which, I feel its a good idea to cross-reference a relevant thread here:

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...yer-since-2006

    The numbers tell a tale.
    Soooooo many........
    All are TH? ROFL

  17. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    As far as I remember, China was not part of IBF yet. Rudi Hartono mentioned clearly about planning the matches with results to position them 'strategically' in the draws. Difference was the spectators were treated with 'exhibition' matches. Maybe this is more acceptable since Chinese players were not involved.
    As far as Im concern, RH has never fixed any match. I dare you not to just accuse and stir things up, but come up with proof. Or if you want, you can start a new thread regarding that. I will bet there was nothing close to unprofessional/unfair/shameful LYB LD and CHN team WO tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I am waiting the day BWF or whatever organization in the future, come with the funds for the prize monies and endorsements that enable the players to support their lives as athletes and also after their retirement from badminton. Until that happens, I am content with the development of badminton now.
    Since when money determines right and wrong. I dont get it, how does this WO tactic by LYB is anything related to BWF having money power?? As far I understand LD and the likes have earn good amount of $$$ from endorsement etc etc. That may not as big as other sports, but that should not stopping them from doing the right things. Yes its true the attachment to national team has some merit (which at this stage I fully support), but again national team boss like LYB should not manipulate the power that he/she has to enforce anything like these WOs. So lets see it separately.

    Why does BWF has to have big money to enforce good and fair rule? On the contrary this shameful CHN WO tactic is destroying badminton image in front of milllions of potential fans around the world, and how that is the benefit of the development of badminton?? The promotion of badminton as professional sport requires investment, no doubt about that. But i can grow naturally along with the increase interest in many places without CHN WO tactic. To be fair I think the grow of badminton in places like Australia, is not too bad at all. The bottom line is for badminton to grow, it does not need any shameful negative news like what PYB and CHN team now provide.
    Last edited by Yoppy; 10-03-2011 at 09:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    lyb said something in public, but so did rudi hartono.
    proof it!!

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