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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I don't remember any other country in recent years that produced enough players able to advance to final stages of the competitions as China. The only country capable to place various players in advanced stages of competitions was Indonesia back in the 80's with Liem Swie King, Lius Pongoh, Hastomo Arbi, Sugiarto in singles and other outstanding doubles pairs, and in the 90's with Suprianto, Kusuma, Wiranata, Susanto, etc... In men's singles, unfortunately I don't see Indonesian/Danish players in the finals and from Malaysia, LCW seems to be the 'lone warrior'. I don't even want to mention the women's side - let's hope Taiwan and Thailand continue with the support.
    Main point is other countries, esp democratic countries, still would not dare to do it, even if they have the large poll of players, due to the serious consequences if they do so. Plus someone somewhere along the line will surely blow the whistle. No way they can continously do it for years on
    THe other point is other sports association are more strict or rather have more guts. Yes, Koreans have done it with the weird line up in TC- they would not have gotten off so easily in other sports. Please read previous pages of this thread. Badminton is becoming the laughing stock of the other sports when they see all this antics going on.
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 10-03-2011 at 09:39 PM.

  2. #172
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    I do not want to get this topic with politics. I have played badminton for 30+ years and have followed it closely for many years. There are things I like very much about the game of badminton and other aspect a little less. While I think where you are trying to get at, fact is China's development system is setup and players follow the system. Each country has their own development program and system in place, accordingly values and expectations are different as well. You may be right about the antics. But as I mentioned, it is up to the responsible organization to amend the rules if they are not strong enough or loopholes are found. This is how I think the organization should proceed. I don't think is right to accuse the managers and players when everything is done in accordance with the existing rules. Nothing in life is not perfect, we just try to make it better.
    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Main point is other countries, esp democratic countries, still would not dare to do it, even if they have the large poll of players, due to the serious consequences if they do so. Plus someone somewhere along the line will surely blow the whistle. No way they can continously do it for years on THe other point is other sports association are more strict or rather have more guts. Yes, Koreans have done it with the weird line up in TC- they would not have gotten off so easily in other sports. Please read previous pages of this thread. Badminton is becoming the laughing stock of the other sports when they see all this antics going on.

  3. #173
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    I cannot prove it, but you should be able to find the interview posted somewhere here in BC. I can't really remember who posted the article, maybe Bbn or Loh. Happy search!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    proof it!!

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I cannot prove it, but you should be able to find the interview posted somewhere here in BC. I can't really remember who posted the article, maybe Bbn or Loh. Happy search!
    Then your point is a baseless accusation. And btw mr Loh and Bbn also never provided a solid proof, maybe they have maybe they don't. You can ask them if you don't trust me. But I'm not the one here who made the statement, so why should I be the one responsible finding the proof??
    Last edited by Yoppy; 10-04-2011 at 01:39 AM.

  5. #175
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    Seriously, after these many years we still debate on such meaningless topics? Yeah, a lot of the rules are not perfect, and it will never be. It's tough to be on the receiving end, but unless you find an effective way to counter it, there's nothing we can do about.

    The sports rules is like many laws, have holes and issues here and there. Unless an effective fix is introduced, there's no point to complain. If someone effectively "take advantage", but you cannot, then it's more like your own problem, rather than other individuals. I call it "sour grape".

    Well, move on, enjoy the sport, instead of focusing on which national flag the players are carrying...

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Main point is other countries, esp democratic countries, still would not dare to do it, even if they have the large poll of players, due to the serious consequences if they do so. Plus someone somewhere along the line will surely blow the whistle. No way they can continously do it for years on
    THe other point is other sports association are more strict or rather have more guts. Yes, Koreans have done it with the weird line up in TC- they would not have gotten off so easily in other sports. Please read previous pages of this thread. Badminton is becoming the laughing stock of the other sports when they see all this antics going on.
    There's a difference between "do not want to do it" vs. "never get a chance to do it". If CHN players want to do it, they have to be good enough to get to QF, SF or even Final 1st. If KOR team wants to do it, they have to get to SF 1st as well.

    I can say that I am a saint, as I will never throw a match to LD or LCW, etc. However, simply because I might never get a chance to against them in SF or Final to begin with. If I step into their system, I might have to think and do it differently.

    I remember this report during OG 08, as some analysts say that wester atheltes do not care about medal counts, but focus on what they love. Hence, pointing that CHN is massive produce pros for medal counts. The funny example is, they said if LBJ gives up basketball, and go for track & field (long jump), he has more chance to get more medals for US, rather than sharing 1 with 11 others.

    Give me a freaking break, you think LBJ choose basketball instead of long jump (or whatever) is because he loves the sport itself??? There's no mult. million $$$ play for any factors??? Of course, western players do not care medal counts as much (e.g. many refuse to play for OG tennis), not because they are saints, only because OG does not provide $$$ or ranking points. They care about their OWN careers (which means million $$$) way over their national pride.

  7. #177
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    My point could be baseless - but isn't the same for most of the claims here. As I mentioned the WOs are a fact, but were the claims not verified and confirmed by the tournament doctors. What people have noticed is the frequency which while surely make people think, but really nothing against the current rules. Honestly, I am not much interested in this topic, but since you asked... http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...orruption-free
    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    Then your point is a baseless accusation. And btw mr Loh and Bbn also never provided a solid proof, maybe they have maybe they don't. You can ask them if you don't trust me. But I'm not the one here who made the statement, so why should I be the one responsible finding the proof??

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    My point could be baseless - but isn't the same for most of the claims here. As I mentioned the WOs are a fact, but were the claims not verified and confirmed by the tournament doctors. What people have noticed is the frequency which while surely make people think, but really nothing against the current rules. Honestly, I am not much interested in this topic, but since you asked... http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...orruption-free
    Very good find, Viver. That settles whether other countries are doing it also. Given the opportunity, any country could do it. Maybe not every tournament, but when the title is grand enough...

  9. #179
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    The original poster was Loh, so Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar. Any appreciation should be directed to Loh. The article is interesting and also enlightening but ignored by the 'masses' here.
    Last edited by viver; 10-05-2011 at 12:29 AM.

  10. #180
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    I've just been reading through this thread, and I have noticed that for the most part there have been some great comments and some very sensible and some thought-provoking suggestions.

    There have also been a lot of thoughts and opinions expressed on why the walkovers/withdrawals are happening, if there is anything wrong with that at all, and why it is unfair to tag China as the bad guys.

    There have been many posts expressing strong sentiments. There have been many posts expressing a balanced and often informed opinions on actions/consequences, as well as examples of the same.

    Through all this, there appears however, a kind of appreciation of the complexity of the issue. Sometimes, the language used or the methods employed to make a point, may not be the most... diplomatic ...but it certainly helps spice things up! However, the very fact that most of us are driven to express strong opinions and take the time to make suggestions or discuss possible solutions, shows that we would really want to find a solution to this issue!

    Sadly, I have also noticed that many forumers who were providing their valuable inputs on earlier pages, have chosen not to continue. I hope they come back and continue to help us all to look for the answers.

    Just remember: the answers we will find, do not apply just to the China syndrome (sorry, couldn't resist! ) it will apply just as well to any other team at any time, now or in the future. That is how it should be.

  11. #181
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    viver, you call that a proof? I call it a publicity stun before a book launch. The allegation was fully denied by Rudy. You can find it on the following articles:http://berita.liputan6.com/read/2342...ai.Kontroversi If you can translate that RH mentioned the AE 1976 was a pure match.Im sorry even Liem Swie King did not mentioned of any match fixing. And BTW this is what Liem Swie King said "I lost to him, that's all", what does that suppose to mean? It mean he lost to RH, thats all, no? Attachment 109005And where is in that article mentioned what Rudy said anything about fixing a match? Here's what he said "But it was part of our strategy in anticipation of 1979 Thomas Cup finals and the possibility of China making its debut in the championships," Did he say what strategy that was? NO. How can we conclude the strategy he meant was a match fixing strategy? Its clearly that the sentence was mis-qouted and taken out of proportion. So where is it? Where did Rudy Hartono or PBSI boss ever bragged about match fixing and feel proud about it??Lets compare that to what LYB said.I rest my case
    Last edited by Yoppy; 10-05-2011 at 02:12 AM.

  12. #182
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    viver, you call that a proof? I call it a publicity stun before a book launch. The allegation was fully denied by Rudy.

    You can find it on the following articles:http://berita.liputan6.com/read/2342...ai.Kontroversi If you can translate that RH mentioned the AE 1976 was a pure match.

    Im sorry even Liem Swie King did not mentioned of any match fixing. And BTW this is what Liem Swie King said "I lost to him, that's all", what does that suppose to mean? It mean he lost to RH, thats all, no?

    Attachment 109005

    And where is in that article mentioned what Rudy said anything about fixing a match? Here's what he said "But it was part of our strategy in anticipation of 1979 Thomas Cup finals and the possibility of China making its debut in the championships," Did he say what strategy that was? NO. How can we conclude the strategy he meant was a match fixing strategy? Its clearly that the sentence was mis-qouted and taken out of proportion.

    So where is it? Where did Rudy Hartono or PBSI boss ever bragged about match fixing and feel proud about it?? Lets compare that to what LYB said. I rest my case

  13. #183
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    Yoppy,

    You are welcome to choose what you like to believe. The article posted by Loh is from a newspaper from Indonesia, the Jakarta Post I believe. Is the newspaper reliable? You can better judge it for yourself, I am not from Indonesia and surely not familiar with the local happenings. On the same token, can I say that LYB was also misunderstood and his words misinterpreted by the press?

    As mentioned, I don't give this topic much thought. It is also not my concern if you found the article not reliable. I have been exposed to badminton for many years, involved in different ways, had different roles and have my sources of information. You surely have your own experiences in the badminton world and accordingly your own opinions and interpretations of the events should be different from mine.

    The other day I read an article about sports being the modern opium of the society. An interesting article, where the writer ranted on the effects of football (soccer) in their country and the national politics involved - individuals receiving national honors for results achieved on the field, the writer asked, what did they do? But I believe most of the people in general saw it the other way.

  14. #184
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    Update on the spot-fixing issue for those interested...

    Jury sees no-ball footage and phone records
    Richard Sydenham at Southwark Crown Court
    October 6, 2011

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan...ry/535349.html

    Excerpts:

    ...Butt and Asif are facing charges of conspiracy to cheat, and conspiracy to obtain and accept corrupt payments, following that Lord's Test in August last year when they allegedly conspired with Majeed, teenage fast bowler Amir and other people unknown to bowl pre-determined no-balls. Butt and Asif deny the charges.

    ...All stories of phone and text traffic were substantiated with official records from phone companies that proved the dialogue between the various parties.

    ...Much of the money was found in a locked suitcase that Butt said belonged to his wife and for which he did not have the key. When it was opened they found a "large" amount of currency - some of which was in envelopes and some not. In total the stash included 14,003 in one spot, and 15,999 in various denominations in envelopes. There was also US$12,617, 24,300 of UAE dirhams, AUS$710, 26,015 Pakistani rupees, $350 Canadian, 440 South African rand - as well as four mobile phones.

    Meanwhile, Sawani (the ICC's chief investigator) was in front of the jury for just over half an hour. His responses, while not very specific as to the case itself, will have left the the jury more familiar with the vast sums of money involved in the illegal cricket betting industry.

    "One single legal betting company could generate 40 million for a one-day international," Sawani told the court, "For an India-Pakistan one-day international in Mumbai, you can have as much as $200 million bet in the illegal betting market in Mumbai and then (additionally) there are the cities around India, the UK, the South East (Asia) and Dubai."
    Sawani told of the sinister underworld that exists in the illegal betting industry and said that accounts are settled the day after a bet is made and that there are no defaulters because "mafias are the enforcers".

  15. #185
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    Hi all,
    I have been thinking that there are no new arguments to the thread and many are still in denial mode.
    I would like to recall that the semi-final of the 2004 Olympic WS match between Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning was fixed, and that the 2000 Olympic semi-final between Ye Zhaoying and Gong Zhichao was also fixed. Li Yongbo gave many interviews about that.
    Both were tough decisions. Ye Zhaoying was destroyed but she had no choice, and Zhou Mi left China.

    But though this is upsetting, I don't think it is the biggest problem. The big problem is that the 'team strategy' is nowadays constant - every tournament is affected (when CHN is there), and in more then one discipline. What have been exceptional decisions have become the normal way of doing things. It is now massive.
    So we should stop arguing about 'is it true', 'is it only CHN', 'do we have proof' etc., and go to the real issue.
    Last edited by renbo; 10-06-2011 at 07:13 PM.

  16. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    Hi all,
    I have been thinking that there are no new arguments to the thread and many are still in denial mode.
    I would like to recall that the semi-final of the 2004 Olympic WS match between Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning was fixed, and that the 2000 Olympic semi-final between Ye Zhaoying and Gong Zhichao was also fixed. Li Yongbo gave many interviews about that.
    Both were tough decisions. Ye Zhaoying was destroyed but she had no choice, and Zhou Mi left China.

    But though this is upsetting, I don't think it is the biggest problem. The big problem is that the 'team strategy' is nowadays constant - every tournament is affected (when CHN is there), and in more then one discipline. What have been exceptional decisions have become the normal way of doing things. It is now massive.
    So we should stop arguing about 'is it true', 'is it only CHN', 'do we have proof' etc., and go to the real issue.
    Clear and concise english, you said it all in 2 paragraphs.

  17. #187
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    What is the issue then? If there is an issue(s) what would be the solution?

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