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  1. #188
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    After 11 pages worth of posting, I've to wonder where this thread is heading. Would the OP drive to the resolution, come up with an action plan, follow up on it, and make it happen? Or not?

  2. #189
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question What would be the solution?

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    What is the issue then? If there is an issue(s) what would be the solution?
    .
    Just allow every player to perform their best every time.

    As coaches, they should encourage their trainees to perform their best every time.

    As spectators, they should get to watch matches that players are performing their best every time.

    Otherwise, Badminton would be known as a 'Pretend/Acting Sport', and our Badminton popularity will drop from 'Not so good' to 'Bad'.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 10-06-2011 at 11:30 PM.

  3. #190
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    Well, in the firsts pages of this thread there were some solutions proposed. But of course we are only chatting on the net, we're in no position to make a decision.
    Except perhaps one, the option I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion : to react as fans when we see some unfair behavior. Lin Dan was strongly boooed in Singapore and rightly so, I think local clubs should write some posters with the appropriate insults for cheating teams to show to tv cameras, and, if we would have the guts, to boycott any game played by a team after it cheated. Imagine the whole stadium emptied in Jakarta or Tokyo for a final after a fake semi. If this would happen in two or three stadiums, the sponsors would start to freak out and the BWF as well.

  4. #191
    Regular Member nokh88's Avatar
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    We, the audience and badminton fans can only do so much.

  5. #192
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    Well, in the firsts pages of this thread there were some solutions proposed. But of course we are only chatting on the net, we're in no position to make a decision.
    Except perhaps one, the option I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion : to react as fans when we see some unfair behavior. Lin Dan was strongly boooed in Singapore and rightly so, I think local clubs should write some posters with the appropriate insults for cheating teams to show to tv cameras, and, if we would have the guts, to boycott any game played by a team after it cheated. Imagine the whole stadium emptied in Jakarta or Tokyo for a final after a fake semi. If this would happen in two or three stadiums, the sponsors would start to freak out and the BWF as well.
    Some of the greatest documents like the Charter of Rights were devised by a few people tossing around ideas in the light of paraffin lamps, without the help of the Internet, email, forums, search engines etc. Sometimes I think we've become victims of our own obsession with procedures, rules, protocols, alignments, information overload, dissemblance etc. Maybe a lot of us have lost the ability to see the woods for the trees. Common sense; clear thinking; straightforward values; decisive action - all these are mostly dinosaurs now. We will take other people's words and statements, rules and procedures, and twist them to suit and justify our agenda.

    You're doing fine, renbo. In some cases, it often takes a hot iron up the backside to get some decisive action. Please continue to contribute your thoughts, they are much appreciated!

  6. #193
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    After 11 pages worth of posting, I've to wonder where this thread is heading. Would the OP drive to the resolution, come up with an action plan, follow up on it, and make it happen? Or not?
    No point in working towards any premature conclusion. I have a feeling there are still many good ideas and suggestions that are still to come. No harm waiting, is there? We're not trying to beat any deadline here after all, but striving toward a (hopefully) consensual set of suggestions/guidelines/amendments/ideas that can sew up the holes that national associations can take advantage of.

    You've asked some pretty searching questions so far; maybe you'd also like to contribute some thoughtful suggestions for implementation?

  7. #194
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    I know the feeling, making a trip to the stadium, purchase the ticket(s), hoping for an exciting match but... Well, during my days WOs were rare, there would be at least an 'exhibition match'. Today I rarely go to the stadiums, much less with the 21-point system which in my view, pretty boring.

    Badminton is a regulated sport, to change it needs a good look into the existing rules and make appropriate changes. From what I have heard, my feeling is that the organization is in a mess and leadership lacking, there is why so many issues.

    Booing athletes does not help and is not fair to them in my opinion. They work hard, work through obstacles and challenge themselves every day to be there. Many athletes with the ability to reach advanced rounds in the competition have strong confidence in their abilities and also attain the highest in rankings. If they cannot play for whatever reason, they are the ones that are affected the most.

    I am slow and can't think of anything. From what I can understand, the issues are quite complex as of now. Many countries put a lot of resources into sports and surely there must be strong reasons for this. I remember the interview by Tang Xianfu when as player, he mentioned he was ordered by a Chinese minister to lose the match, at the request of the minister from his opponent's country. Also an article in a newspaper where the writer considers that sports are the modern opium of the masses.

    In my opinion, these should be good for our thoughts. Myself, I try not to get too distracted by these issues.


    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    Well, in the firsts pages of this thread there were some solutions proposed. But of course we are only chatting on the net, we're in no position to make a decision.
    Except perhaps one, the option I mentioned at the beginning of the discussion : to react as fans when we see some unfair behavior. Lin Dan was strongly boooed in Singapore and rightly so, I think local clubs should write some posters with the appropriate insults for cheating teams to show to tv cameras, and, if we would have the guts, to boycott any game played by a team after it cheated. Imagine the whole stadium emptied in Jakarta or Tokyo for a final after a fake semi. If this would happen in two or three stadiums, the sponsors would start to freak out and the BWF as well.

  8. #195
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    Then just show them the MONEY every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Just allow every player to perform their best every time.

    As coaches, they should encourage their trainees to perform their best every time.

    As spectators, they should get to watch matches that players are performing their best every time.

    Otherwise, Badminton would be known as a 'Pretend/Acting Sport', and our Badminton popularity will drop from 'Not so good' to 'Bad'.
    .

  9. #196
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    The story you mention, Viver, is nothing mysterious : it is the old communist way of looking at sport. The performance of the athletes were suppose to 'prove' the worth of the regime, and sports were an extension of the cold war, and as such winning/losing were political decisions. Of course many of this still remains today (not the cold war, but the self-esteem of a nation related with the sports results).
    About the players not deserving to be booed : they fully deserve it. It is about them. It is their glory if they win, and their shame if they cheat. I am sure they totally understand this (in fact LYB recognize this also in his interviews).
    Saying that players cannot play "for whatever reason" is an escape from your part. We are not talking in this thread of players who cannot play, we are talking of players that cannot play for very precise reasons. It is those reasons we discuss.

  10. #197
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    It maybe the old communist way of looking at sport. I have heard many countries invest heavily in sports - mind you not only communist countries. If you look for western authors, you may find works related to sports which may interest you.

    A player conceding a WO is a player that cannot play, for whatever reason. It may be to your liking or not, but it has been approved by an authorized individual or party. As said, badminton is a regulated sport and there are regulations. We are allowed to speculate, but we can't state for certainty. Like somebody posted, No hard evidence, No witnesses. But as a fan, you can show your disapproval by not going to the games, can't you? Or like you suggested, go to the stadium, pay for the ticket and boo the players.

    I recognized that I am slow and can't find good reasons for WOs. But I assume if BWF could provide purses that are good enough for the good players to support themselves, I would guess the scenario would be quite different.

  11. #198
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Players should perform their best every time

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    Just allow every player to perform their best every time.

    As coaches, they should encourage their trainees to perform their best every time.

    As spectators, they should get to watch matches that players are performing their best every time.

    Otherwise, Badminton would be known as a 'Pretend/Acting Sport', and our Badminton popularity will drop from 'Not so good' to 'Bad'.
    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Then just show them the MONEY every time.
    .
    This is when the problem starts...

    The organiser of the tournament tells players (open to all to know): "Winning your match, you shall receive a prize money of $X.

    Another person tells a players (in secret): "Losing your match, you shall receive a reward of TWICE of $X".

    Regardless of what money the players are to receive, they should be encouraged to perform their best every time.

    This is what eaglehelang has posted, "Badminton is becoming the laughing stock of the other sports when they see all this antics going on".
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 10-07-2011 at 08:28 PM.

  12. #199
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    Viver, the fact that many countries involve heavily in sports in not communist (though communists are strong at that) but the fact that an order to give up a match for a political/diplomatic reason is given is definitively typical of communist regime. That is what you mention with the story of Tang Xianhu.
    I can't understand a thing of your second paragraph. "A player is ordered to cheat, and therefore he cheat. We don't like this, there are regulation but we are not sure. Don't go". I does not make sense.
    Moreover, if nobody goes to the tourneys, it is the end of international badminton and that is not a solution. To boycott a match is different, it is showing a disapproval.
    The prizes given to players is not a decisive factor. Players in the CHN team are not lacking money. Money is not what makes them play in the national sport center. Or else the national organisation of badminton in CHN would have to be different (selection of players is at age 12, the children then leave their family to go to formations center).
    Last edited by renbo; 10-07-2011 at 09:09 PM.

  13. #200
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    ....snip....

    I recognized that I am slow and can't find good reasons for WOs. But I assume if BWF could provide purses that are good enough for the good players to support themselves, I would guess the scenario would be quite different.
    Not just China, but the players of many other countries are controlled by (at the mercy of?) their national associations. BWF policy is to deal only with national associations, not with players. There are possibly some good reasons for this, but like everything, there will also be downsides because the natl associations are run by human beings, who often have their own agendas, and/or are incompetent, and/or are also heavily influenced by political interference, to put it bluntly.

    Just increasing the payout to players is not likely to resolve the issue of questionable walkovers/withdrawals. The player's careers are more-or-less mortgaged to the national association. They have to fall in line with priorities/agendas or run the very real risk of being totally sidelined.

    My 2c...

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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I do not want to get this topic with politics. I have played badminton for 30+ years and have followed it closely for many years. There are things I like very much about the game of badminton and other aspect a little less. While I think where you are trying to get at, fact is China's development system is setup and players follow the system. Each country has their own development program and system in place, accordingly values and expectations are different as well. You may be right about the antics. But as I mentioned, it is up to the responsible organization to amend the rules if they are not strong enough or loopholes are found. This is how I think the organization should proceed. I don't think is right to accuse the managers and players when everything is done in accordance with the existing rules. Nothing in life is not perfect, we just try to make it better.
    That's one of the points I mentioned earlier, BWF are wimps compared to certain other sports associations, examples which have been given. Other sports association hold an inquiry, then concluded there's match fixing although no $$$$ were passed,although the match was played, although the players & coaches denied it strongly.Then deliver the punishment. THey played by the rules yes, but the association decided they didnt play best effort to win but to purposely lose. The association has the power.

    That was why I said 'laughing stock of other sports association',Lawn Bowling is one. I also mentioned 'for years on', lol, no way other countries can pull it off for say 10 to 20 years, continously. Some one complaining, oh yes, very fast will happen & has happened. Democracy, individualistic, if the player gets questioned, the higher powers that instructed him/her to do it will surely wash their hands, the player bears the brunt of the guilty, with reputation totally ruined.
    Once again, read though the other pages & the other match fixing thread
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 10-08-2011 at 12:13 AM.

  15. #202
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    Very good, the agendas related to the countries' policies had been deep rooted for a long time. Tang Xianfu's story may be one among many. Is BWF in a position to do anything to change the behavior?

    Many national associations take care of their players, from development to maturity as players and support their transition into post competition life. What is the incentive to leave the respective national associations to become an independent player if there are no viable alternatives?


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Not just China, but the players of many other countries are controlled by (at the mercy of?) their national associations. BWF policy is to deal only with national associations, not with players. There are possibly some good reasons for this, but like everything, there will also be downsides because the natl associations are run by human beings, who often have their own agendas, and/or are incompetent, and/or are also heavily influenced by political interference, to put it bluntly.<br>
    <br>
    Just increasing the payout to players is not likely to resolve the issue of questionable walkovers/withdrawals. The player's careers are more-or-less mortgaged to the national association. They have to fall in line with priorities/agendas or run the very real risk of being totally sidelined.<br>
    <br>
    My 2c...

  16. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Very good, the agendas related to the countries' policies had been deep rooted for a long time. Tang Xianfu's story may be one among many. Is BWF in a position to do anything to change the behavior?

    Many national associations take care of their players, from development to maturity as players and support their transition into post competition life. What is the incentive to leave the respective national associations to become an independent player if there are no viable alternatives?
    Well said. That's what went through my mind also.

  17. #204
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Question Is BWF in a position to do anything to change the behavior?

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Is BWF in a position to do anything to change the behavior?
    .
    About one month before this thread was created, BWF released this Announcement;

    ====== * ====== start of announcement ====== * ======

    BWF to protect interests of players and spectators with new measures
    Monday, August 15, 2011

    As concerns have been raised about the legitimacy of certain withdrawals in recent tournaments, it warrants the Badminton World Federation (BWF) as the governing body of the sport to put in place firm measures that will serve to protect both our players and Member Associations from speculation in relation to withdrawals and matches between players from the same country.

    To achieve this position, the following measures have been decided upon the meeting of a three-man panel, Paisan Rangsikitpho, Gregory Verpoorten, and Kaveh Mehrabi, who reported to the Executive Board at the on-going World Championships in London, and will therefore be implemented with immediate effect in all level 2 and above tournaments:

    (i) A special assessment will be conducted for any main draw matches between players from the same country. This will include special focused monitoring by the tournament referee or other BWF officials, whereby all of these matches from the quarterfinals onwards (and possibility of earlier stages) will be taped to ensure necessary documentation is on hand if irregularities are suspected and flagged for a review by the BWF disciplinary committee.

    (ii) In the event of a request for withdrawal against a player(s) from the same country, a local tournament doctor will be appointed to diagnose and certify the player(s) unfit to compete.

    (iii) Similar measures can be applied for any other tournament deemed necessary. But BWF will, for all international tournament levels, ensure a focused monitoring process on all matches between players from the same country to eliminate potential speculation.

    (iv) If compelling evidence is found of any irregularities, the matter will be treated with the utmost gravity by the BWF and severe penalties will be imposed.

    The BWF is also constantly reviewing possible changes to the rules to increase awareness of the importance for our players who are facing recurring health or injuries issues to exercise utmost excellence in undergoing complete rest and recovery before participating in any tournaments.

    While it is regrettable and understandable that players have to withdraw from tournaments from time to time due to health conditions or injuries, but the BWF equally believe that players must exercise the highest level of professionalism to protect the interests of the viewing public.

    In closing, these measures are duly acknowledged by the Athletes Commission chairman Kaveh Mehrabi to be protective of the interests of our players, and should any irregularities, appeals and contentions surface, these cases will be referred to the BWF Disciplinary Committee for review.

    Any new regulations will have to be discussed and passed through BWF Council before effected.

    ====== * ====== end of announcement ====== * ======

    Source: http://bwfbadminton.org/news_item.aspx?id=52091

    So far it's NATO (No Action Talk Only).

    Also, some players are still not exercising the highest level of professionalism to protect the interests of the viewing public, like us at BadmintonCentral.
    .

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