The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

[extremenanopowe]

keep on shaming them. shame shame...

[cobalt]

Very good, the agendas related to the countries' policies had been deep rooted for a long time. Tang Xianfu's story may be one among many. Is BWF in a position to do anything to change the behavior?

Frankly, I don't know. My gut feeling? I don't think so, and in any case, it would be out of the purview of the BWF at this stage, unless they make a huge transition or overhaul of their entire policies, including mission statement. I'm not holding my breath on that one, though.

Many national associations take care of their players, from development to maturity as players and support their transition into post competition life. What is the incentive to leave the respective national associations to become an independent player if there are no viable alternatives?

The stats and feedback on this forum, as well as from sources like the press etc, suggests the case is otherwise, in many countries. The ground reality is that many players in many countries come from less privileged backgrounds and as such, their only perceived chance at economic stability comes from badminton. It does not always translate into a successful transition because they know nothing else once they have devoted some of their best formative and developmental years to the game. And once out of the national spotlight, the real opportunities cold be few and far between. Our awareness is mostly (and sadly) on the names that have more reall in our memory. For every one such, there are many more that fall by the wayside.

[chris-ccc]

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Let's post some suspicious match-fixing in other sports (as compared to our suspicious match-fixing in Badminton).

In yesterday's BBC news on Football;

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-15196761

Wayne Rooney's father arrested in police betting probe

6 October 2011

Nine men, including Wayne Rooney's father, who were arrested in a probe into betting irregularities have been released on bail.

Wayne Rooney Sr and seven other men had been held at addresses in Merseyside. Motherwell FC player Steve Jennings had been arrested at his home in Glasgow.

Police said the men had been arrested for conspiracy to defraud.

The probe relates to alleged betting irregularities surrounding a game between Motherwell and Hearts.

Concerns about the game, on 14 December 2010, were raised by the Association of British Bookmakers after a number of bets from the Liverpool area were placed on there being a sending off.

During the match Jennings, who had already been booked, was shown a straight red card for foul and abusive language aimed at referee Stevie O'Reilly late in the 2-1 home defeat.

'Suspicious betting'

The 26-year-old, who is from Liverpool and joined Motherwell from Tranmere two years ago, has denied any wrongdoing.

It is believed that Manchester United and England striker Rooney's uncle Richie, 54, was also among those detained.

Stewart Regan, SFA chief executive, said: "While the investigation involves several other individuals outwith Scotland, it is important to stress that the evidence gathered throughout this thorough period of investigation has involved only one Scottish match.

"Motherwell FC are aware of the situation and will issue a response in due course."

In a statement, Merseyside Police said: "Detectives have today executed warrants at 10 addresses across Merseyside and Glasgow and arrested nine men as part of an investigation into suspicious betting activity.

"The arrests are the culmination of a joint operation with the Gambling Commission and the nine who have been arrested for conspiracy to defraud are being interviewed by detectives.

"Those arrested are a 29-year-old from Bootle, a 48-year-old from West Derby, a 54-year-old from Norris Green, a 26-year-old from Croxteth, a 22-year-old from Kirkdale, a 31-year-old from Litherland, a 68-year-old from Fazakerley, a 36-year-old from Kirkby and a 26-year-old from Glasgow.

"The investigation relates to a match between Motherwell and Hearts on December 14 2010."
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[nokh88]

Speaking of team orders, today's F1 in Japan with Vettel on pole and needing just one point to secure the title while Button from McLaren the only driver still in contention, can Hamilton be asked to prevent Vettel from scoring any points to help McLaren? Something similar happened with Nelson Piquet Jr in Singapore in 2008. See : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6834552.ece

[LazyBuddy]

There is a frequency of meet-ups between players of the same country, not just China. Most matches (with extremely rare exceptions) are played. Quite a few go to 3 games. The ones that don't go to 3 games, are generally those where the levels of skills are clearly different, or where one of them just has a bad day. Once again, the distinction is that these are not Walkovers or Withdrawals. The pattern is being set by one country only. You can visit www.tournamentsoftware.com anytime you like and choose any past tournament to inspect the results, and draw your own conclusions.

How many times I have to say that "given a chance, but choose not to do it" vs. "never even get a chance to begin with, and never can do it" are NOT THE SAME???

I can say that myself, my lil sister who's 3 years old, my grand parents who are 80+. etc are all way more "honest" than any players, because we never throw any SS, AE, OG, WC matches away... Oh, btw, we never qualified, and probally will never ever qualified to begin with... Get the point? check your tournamentsoftware or whatever, my family has the 0000000 record for WO. Does that mean we are perfect???

[cobalt]

How many times I have to say that "given a chance, but choose not to do it" vs. "never even get a chance to begin with, and never can do it" are NOT THE SAME???

I can say that myself, my lil sister who's 3 years old, my grand parents who are 80+. etc are all way more "honest" than any players, because we never throw any SS, AE, OG, WC matches away... Oh, btw, we never qualified, and probally will never ever qualified to begin with... Get the point? check your tournamentsoftware or whatever, my family has the 0000000 record for WO. Does that mean we are perfect???

Exactly!! You should read some more posts on this thread. One of the constant points I (and others as well) have been making right from the beginning has been that humans are not perfect; therefore they are susceptible to all kinds of pressures, different priorities, agendas etc etc. And therefore it is up to the "competent authority" to set up a system of checks/balances and enforce that system, in an attempt to close up all the loopholes. If it is possible. If one wants to even try. If you think it's worth fighting for.

[chris-ccc]

Speaking of team orders, today's F1 in Japan with Vettel on pole and needing just one point to secure the title while Button from McLaren the only driver still in contention, can Hamilton be asked to prevent Vettel from scoring any points to help McLaren? Something similar happened with Nelson Piquet Jr in Singapore in 2008. See : http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6834552.ece

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Hi nokh88,

Please check your link again. It is found "404 Error: The page could not be loaded."
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[pjswift]

How many times I have to say that "given a chance, but choose not to do it" vs. "never even get a chance to begin with, and never can do it" are NOT THE SAME???I can say that myself, my lil sister who's 3 years old, my grand parents who are 80+. etc are all way more "honest" than any players, because we never throw any SS, AE, OG, WC matches away... Oh, btw, we never qualified, and probally will never ever qualified to begin with... Get the point? check your tournamentsoftware or whatever, my family has the 0000000 record for WO. Does that mean we are perfect???

Why do you have to bring up an inane example of your family to illustrate your second point when we are talking about professionals? That s in a way, insulting the intelligence of BCFers, are you not aware? Or maybe that s your objective? Non CHN players have opportunities to fake or fix matches or give walkovers. Some cannot be done because the BA has no power to decide over them. But certainly for BAM and PBSI, they have enough players to order 'patriotic' behaviour. Take MAS MDs QF in JO11 recently. The junior MAS MD should just have done a CHN by giving a walkover to KooTan. Why not? Because of respect for the fans and sponsors and organizers (or BAM is too stupid to understand that stamina and energy level Gilles Berthouddetermining outcome factors, especially from QF onwards?) I have a suggestion. In the coming PSS China Open, BAM and PBSI should order walkovers when their players meet so they can prove their patriotism in front of a largely CHN crowd that would appreciate patriotic behaviour and would not feel insulted. Like they say, if you can t beat them, then join them. Except be selective about where to join them. In this case , only in CHN tournaments. Because the fans would approve of it. Can you imagine 5 , or even just 3 non-CHN walkovers. LYB would be pleased with his infection effectiveness. BWF would be proud of BAM and PBSI s intelligence on doing a CHN in CHN. Let us encourage BAM and PBSI to do it. Only during OG qualification period and only in CHN ( and HKG? And MAC?)

[chris-ccc]

Non CHN players have opportunities to fake or fix matches or give walkovers. Some cannot be done because the BA has no power to decide over them. But certainly for BAM and PBSI, they have enough players to order 'patriotic' behaviour. Take MAS MDs QF in JO11 recently. The junior MAS MD should just have done a CHN by giving a walkover to KooTan. Why not? Because of respect for the fans and sponsors and organizers (or BAM is too stupid to understand that stamina and energy level Gilles Berthouddetermining outcome factors, especially from QF onwards?) I have a suggestion. In the coming PSS China Open, BAM and PBSI should order walkovers when their players meet so they can prove their patriotism in front of a largely CHN crowd that would appreciate patriotic behaviour and would not feel insulted. Like they say, if you can t beat them, then join them. Except be selective about where to join them. In this case , only in CHN tournaments. Because the fans would approve of it. Can you imagine 5 , or even just 3 non-CHN walkovers. LYB would be pleased with his infection effectiveness. BWF would be proud of BAM and PBSI s intelligence on doing a CHN in CHN. Let us encourage BAM and PBSI to do it. Only during OG qualification period and only in CHN ( and HKG? And MAC?)

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In a way, I like your post mentioning "If you can't beat them, then join them".

It is not because it is to retaliate against China's way of often giving walkovers to teammates, but to force BWF to urgently tackle this problem.

If World Ferderations like Lawn Bowling, Cricket, Football, etc, ...... can do it, I am sure BWF can do it if they really wanted to.
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[chris-ccc]

In a way, I like your post mentioning "If you can't beat them, then join them".

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In the other way, Badminton could be in all sorts of trouble if BWF couldn't tackle the "match-fixing" problem. Why? Because there will be too many "walkovers" and/or "match-fixing" happening in tournaments.

We, Badminton followers, will get fewer good matches to watch. And also, we will have more "pretending/acting" staged for us.
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[Yoppy]

Yoppy,

You are welcome to choose what you like to believe. The article posted by Loh is from a newspaper from Indonesia, the Jakarta Post I believe. Is the newspaper reliable? You can better judge it for yourself, I am not from Indonesia and surely not familiar with the local happenings.

I dont question the reputation of Jakarta Post. Thats why its a good media for Liem Swie King to promote his book. But dont quote me on that I merely stating that no where in that article Rudy Hartono or Liem Swie King admit that there was a match fixing. On the contrary they have both denied it. The journalist can write whatever he wants but one thing he did not proof is that there was a match fixing.

On the same token, can I say that LYB was also misunderstood and his words misinterpreted by the press?

NO. On the other hand LYB statement is as clear as you can get, here's again what LYB said, and I quote:

"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape,"
"So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
"It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it."

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=416666

I really dont understand, what more do you ask for??

As mentioned, I don't give this topic much thought.

Then I think you should. Otherwise why wasting your time hangin in this thread where you dont care about.

It is also not my concern if you found the article not reliable. I have been exposed to badminton for many years, involved in different ways, had different roles and have my sources of information. You surely have your own experiences in the badminton world and accordingly your own opinions and interpretations of the events should be different from mine.

Thats what a forum is for, a sharing of opinion and information. It is also not my concern if you found my article not reliable, with that clear cut statement of LYB in the content, Im not worry at all about its popularity.

The other day I read an article about sports being the modern opium of the society. An interesting article, where the writer ranted on the effects of football (soccer) in their country and the national politics involved - individuals receiving national honors for results achieved on the field, the writer asked, what did they do? But I believe most of the people in general saw it the other way.

Yes Yes yes......no one said other sports are clean. We are not talking about that, are we? Are you saying that because it exists, so its OK? Sorry as far as I know a wrong is a wrong whichever way you want to look at it.

[Yoppy]

Booing athletes does not help and is not fair to them in my opinion. They work hard, work through obstacles and challenge themselves every day to be there. Many athletes with the ability to reach advanced rounds in the competition have strong confidence in their abilities and also attain the highest in rankings. If they cannot play for whatever reason, they are the ones that are affected the most.

Please stop this "Im just the victim" cry.......the arguably the greatest player of all time LD is just a victim of team order......oooh what a shame!! Or should we start a thread call "What should LD do?". As far as I see on the TV, LD is a strong grown man, I thought no one can tell him what to do beside his wife. What a shame!!!

I am slow and can't think of anything. From what I can understand, the issues are quite complex as of now. Many countries put a lot of resources into sports and surely there must be strong reasons for this. I remember the interview by Tang Xianfu when as player, he mentioned he was ordered by a Chinese minister to lose the match, at the request of the minister from his opponent's country. Also an article in a newspaper where the writer considers that sports are the modern opium of the masses.

Proof please......!!!! Tang Xian Fu and those Chinese/Foreign ministers are now also a match fixer. In where I live you are innocent until proven guilty.

[nokh88]

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Hi nokh88,

Please check your link again. It is found "404 Error: The page could not be loaded."
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It's there, Chris.
Anyway, Vettel has retained his title, the youngest at 24 after finishing 3rd even though Button won the race with Alonso coming second and Hamilton finishing fourth. No team orders. To heavy a penalty to pay.

[OneToughBirdie]

Why do you have to bring up an inane example of your family to illustrate your second point when we are talking about professionals? That s in a way, insulting the intelligence of BCFers, are you not aware? Or maybe that s your objective? Non CHN players have opportunities to fake or fix matches or give walkovers. Some cannot be done because the BA has no power to decide over them. But certainly for BAM and PBSI, they have enough players to order 'patriotic' behaviour. Take MAS MDs QF in JO11 recently. The junior MAS MD should just have done a CHN by giving a walkover to KooTan. Why not? Because of respect for the fans and sponsors and organizers (or BAM is too stupid to understand that stamina and energy level Gilles Berthouddetermining outcome factors, especially from QF onwards?) I have a suggestion. In the coming PSS China Open, BAM and PBSI should order walkovers when their players meet so they can prove their patriotism in front of a largely CHN crowd that would appreciate patriotic behaviour and would not feel insulted. Like they say, if you can t beat them, then join them. Except be selective about where to join them. In this case , only in CHN tournaments. Because the fans would approve of it. Can you imagine 5 , or even just 3 non-CHN walkovers. LYB would be pleased with his infection effectiveness. BWF would be proud of BAM and PBSI s intelligence on doing a CHN in CHN. Let us encourage BAM and PBSI to do it. Only during OG qualification period and only in CHN ( and HKG? And MAC?)

TSB should really look at 2011DOSS draw and whatever SSs coming up leading to qualification for OLY12 if TSB/LCW are really seriously aiming for OLY gold and not these SS thingies. LCW could meet CJ at QF. LCW should give his all to KO CJ or play all out to wear CJ down even if LCW lose. If LCW wins, he should do a WO if he meets PG, so PG can be fresh into the final. That would increase the point gap between PG and CJ, and if PG wins DO11, what friends are for? I really meant what I say, I know I am bad, unsportsmanlike, whatever but so what, nice guy finish last, might as well play the game.

[OneToughBirdie]

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In a way, I like your post mentioning "If you can't beat them, then join them".

It is not because it is to retaliate against China's way of often giving walkovers to teammates, but to force BWF to urgently tackle this problem.

If World Ferderations like Lawn Bowling, Cricket, Football, etc, ...... can do it, I am sure BWF can do it if they really wanted to.
.

BWF knows this problem but it becomes a million dollar question how to fix it. Proof faking injury and WO, proof a player throwing game to compatriots, and even after LYB was quoted by CHN newspaper to openly admitting match fixing, BWF cannot or will not do anything, that is the writing on the wall. There is nothing to gain to retaliate against LYB, but it is to play along if the opportunity presents itself, starting with DO11. The only obstacle is 'would TSB/LCW do it?'. I hope they do, screw sportsmanship for the next few months then resume sportsmanship after that

[OneToughBirdie]

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In the other way, Badminton could be in all sorts of trouble if BWF couldn't tackle the "match-fixing" problem. Why? Because there will be too many "walkovers" and/or "match-fixing" happening in tournaments.

We, Badminton followers, will get fewer good matches to watch. And also, we will have more "pretending/acting" staged for us.
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The biggest problem to BWF is badminton will remain a backyard, Asian sport and would not break through to Europe and North America as no TV stations will touch this thingie.

[raymond]

What do you think is the drawback for BWF to restrict any country from sending more than 2 players into any tournaments, as someone once suggested here? That would have been an easy resolution to this "problem". Why isn't this done? Please answer this question first. If there's any dispute among players from the same country, it should also be quite easily resolvable by having these players compete against each other in round robin fashion to select the best 2 in advance.

I say, we should stick with the original posture the OP proposed - go after the root cause - BWF, and stop the CHN bashing. CHN has been using all the means allowed by regulations. Fans like you and I might not approve it, but that's not CHN's concern.

Organization(s) that sell(s) tickets and televise(s) these events should make the appropriate rules and follow up, as they're the ones responsible for their paying customers.

So we should stick to the topic, shall we?