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  1. #222
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Lightbulb It is not CHN bashing

    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    What do you think is the drawback for BWF to restrict any country from sending more than 2 players into any tournaments, as someone once suggested here? That would have been an easy resolution to this "problem". Why isn't this done?
    ............

    So we should stick to the topic, shall we?
    .
    That was one of the suggestions to reduce to the number of walkover/match-fixing. The main aim is to reduce to the number of walkover/match-fixing. It is not CHN bashing.

    The last few posts suggested that other players (from other countries should do likewise). It is again not CHN bashing, but to force BWF/tournament organisers to urgently tackle this problem.

    We, Badminton followers, want to have good matches to watch (regardless of who play who), and BWF is the one who can control this.

    I read in the last few posts as protesting what is happening currently. It is to force BWF to reduce/control the number of walkover/match-fixing.

    When we wish to watch good matches, we wish to see the true fighting spirit displayed by players. It is regardless of who play who.
    .

  2. #223
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Sorry that I just have to repeat this

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    When we wish to watch good matches, we wish to see the true fighting spirit displayed by players. It is regardless of who play who.
    .
    Currently, at the Quarter-Finals and Semi-Finals of BWF tournaments, there are just too many walkovers whenever CHN-vs-CHN matches occur.

    Sorry that I just have to repeat this. Why? Because it makes Badminton not a true sport to follow, but a 'staged/acting' sport.

  3. #224
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    There was a very interesting article posted in late July of 2008 on Playthegame, a website run by the Danish Institute of Sports studies. It gives a clear report of the feelings/opinions that many players had 4 years later after when LYB justified his actions at the Athens Olympics. There is also a brief explanation of the mindset that perceives such actions as acceptable. Lastly, there was some ideas and suggestions made by different people. All in all, some fascinating reading.

    http://www.playthegame.org/news/deta...nton-1406.html

    Some of the more interesting excerpts:

    Thus far, the Badminton World Federation (BWF) has failed to get an explanation from China over the admission. The Badminton Players Federation (BPF) is keen for answers though, and calls for tough sanctions against the Chinese coach.
    After the admission by Li Yongbo, the BWF began to set up an Ethics Commission to deal with similar incidents in the future, though its progress has disappointed the BPF.
    “Not enough action has been taken,” says Bobby Milroy, President of Badminton Players Federation. “In such a case where Li Yongbo feels it appropriate to boast about match-fixing, the BWF should do whatever it takes to ensure his immediate dismissal.”
    “My recommendation at the time was to ban Chinese players from all competitions, including the Olympics, until such time as Li Yongbo was fired,” continues Milroy.

    ...Why Li Yongbo decided to go public with this admission remains unclear, though his admissions come as no surprise to many top badminton players.

    ...“The public admission of match fixing has been of great concern to athletes worldwide. Great empathy and concern is expressed to athletes who have become direct victims of this. The players in most countries will not tolerate this unfair play,” says Deacon to Play the Game.

    ...The Players Federation takes this case very seriously: “The BPF will continue to push for harsher sanctions against anyone caught match fixing. It is also our intention to open an investigation into match fixing practices,” says Bobby Milroy to Play the Game.

    ...“It is very telling that many journalists at the 2008 All-England had their articles about the Men's Singles final already written the night before the match. The outcome was clearly pre-determined”, concludes Rice.

    ...According to Dr. Huan Xiong from Irish Institute of Chinese Studies at University College Cork in Ireland, there are some basic explanations to this phenomenon, which may be embedded in the Chinese social system. “For a long time, no individualism has existed in Chinese society. Everyone belongs to the state and has to obey to the nation. The interests of nation and the state always come first when social members make their decisions. This ideology is also reflected in sport. To guarantee the final success of the games, the team manager has the right to decide which player is going to play and win for next matches,” Huan Xiong tells Play the Game.
    Athletes, who are selected as young kids, trained, and paid by the Chinese Government are pretty much like employees of the Government. “Their job is to win medals and serve the nation. Emotionally, the sports teams are their second homes and they have to listen to their coaches, managers, who play the roles like their parents” Huan Xiong continues.
    However, Huan Xiong believes that this phenomenon in Chinese sport will change in the process of market-oriented transformation. Some of the athletes have become aware of their own individual rights and interests.

    ...Nonetheless, Rice an ambassador for the pressure group “Right to Play”, believes it is important to her to get the problems in international badminton out in the open, also in western countries where badminton is not such a big sport as it is in Asia: “I take the issue of match fixing in our sport very seriously. To me it is as much a form of cheating as is doping. Not only does it cast a light of illegitimacy on our entire sport (and everyone involved with it), it also takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny.”

    ...The idea of an anti-corruption agency appeals to the BPF: “I would really like to be involved with it in some capacity,” Milroy tells Play the Game.

    According to Martha Deacon, the athletes have to be united and step up to the plate to say this is unacceptable to ensure the integrity of badminton and for unethical practices to be challenged and stopped. “Bobby Milroy, the BWF Player Representative will be in China to continue to advocate for the game and what is right and fair. He needs the support of nations, of policy makers of NOC as he tries to move forward.” “There has to be some very tough measures and sanctions put into place and monitored for the future,” says Deacon. “Everyone involved in badminton must take off their own ‘hats’ and find a way to work together and find common ground for the future of the sport”.

  4. #225
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    LYB and the Chinese team ( upper management above LYB) think cheating is acceptable. This is getting unbearable. I agree that the Chinese players should be ban to compete in international tournaments. Yes very tough measures and sanctions must be taken to teach some recalcitrants in the sport.

  5. #226
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    Thanks for the post. This is the interesting part...

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post

    Thus far, the Badminton World Federation (BWF) has failed to get an explanation from China over the admission. The Badminton Players Federation (BPF) is keen for answers though, and calls for tough sanctions against the Chinese coach.

  6. #227
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    Thanks for the post. This is the interesting part...
    I was waiting for either you or raymond to point this out
    But I do agree; in fact, another line that I have also copied in the excerpts grabs me even more:
    “There has to be some very tough measures and sanctions put into place and monitored for the future,” says Deacon. “Everyone involved in badminton must take off their own ‘hats’ and find a way to work together and find common ground for the future of the sport”.

  7. #228
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    I'll wait to see the results.

    In the posted article, Dr. Huan Xiong offered some explanations about the cultural background in China. But I'd extend it to some other powerhouses as well.

    Professional athletes do not like to lose. Professional athletes are attracted by the financial benefits, the higher their ranking, better pay. Chinese athletes are not different. Dr. Huan Xiong compares the Chinese players as employees of a company. Personally I find the analogy good, and like most working people, will switch the another employer if better conditions are offered.

    I'll be waiting for future developments. In the meantime, I'll check the CSBL matches and wait for the next China National Games for some exciting matches.

    PS: Since badminton is a 'team' sport, maybe it should be restricted 1 player per country for the big tournaments - i.e. Olympics.


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I was waiting for either you or raymond to point this out
    But I do agree; in fact, another line that I have also copied in the excerpts grabs me even more:

  8. #229
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Thumbs up 2 participants per country to participate at the Olympic Games

    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    I'll wait to see the results.

    In the posted article, Dr. Huan Xiong offered some explanations about the cultural background in China. But I'd extend it to some other powerhouses as well.

    Professional athletes do not like to lose. Professional athletes are attracted by the financial benefits, the higher their ranking, better pay. Chinese athletes are not different. Dr. Huan Xiong compares the Chinese players as employees of a company. Personally I find the analogy good, and like most working people, will switch the another employer if better conditions are offered.

    I'll be waiting for future developments. In the meantime, I'll check the CSBL matches and wait for the next China National Games for some exciting matches.

    PS: Since badminton is a 'team' sport, maybe it should be restricted 1 player per country for the big tournaments - i.e. Olympics.
    .
    I would like Badminton to follow Swimming which allows 2 participants per country to participate in the Olympic Games. Why? Because we would like to see who is the best in their own country as performed on the world stage (at the Olympic Games).

    Having only 1 participant per country can still be corrupted (National Associations may select the wrong one due to some wrong decisions).
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 10-12-2011 at 08:00 PM.

  9. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Why do you have to bring up an inane example of your family to illustrate your second point when we are talking about professionals? That s in a way, insulting the intelligence of BCFers, are you not aware? Or maybe that s your objective? Non CHN players have opportunities to fake or fix matches or give walkovers.
    So, I am using my OWN family is an insult to your so call professionals??? If they are really professionals, please train harder, play harder, mentally tougher, etc. Instead, they are the so call "true fans" whinning whinning whinning, simply waste everyone's time. The champion is made by skill, not by debating or whinning or keeping "fixing rule books".

    All I am trying to say is, you can "walk over" all you want to, but ooooppps, your heros are simply "NOT GOOD ENOUGH" to get to the "walk over stage" yet. Fine, you can paint all of them be saint, and say even if they get there, they will never do this or that. I would love to agree with you as well, but tell me this, when your "Saints" will get there to begin with first?

    Ok, put everything on the side. You do not like LD to walk over, you hate LYB to "direct the traffic"? Easy, eliminate them in 1st round, 2nd round each time, with your racket, not your mouth. If you eliminate LD and his crews in 1st round, why you even have to worry about a QF, or SF walk over to begin with?

  10. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    I would like Badminton to follow Swimming which allows 2 participants per country to participate in the Olympic Games. Why? Because we would like to see who is the best in their own country as performed on the world stage (at the Olympic Games).

    Having only 1 participant per country can still be corrupted (National Associations may select the wrong one due to some wrong decisions).
    .
    I kinda want to suggest the exact opposite, there should be no limitation per country, simply select the best of the best players, regardless which flag s/he carries. We are talking about a sports event, there should be no politics involved.

    Why there's so call walk-over, team stategy, etc? Because that's exactly how CHN and its players to counter the 3 per nation policy. If there's no limit, then all the players only need to fight for him/herself, but not too worry about, whether "I am only the 4th best of my nation". If there's no limit, players obviously will fight for his/her own ranking points, and for the possible higher seed. How well his/her teammate will do, will be much much much less important.

    Because of the 3 per nation policy, you always harshly took away players' chance, such as XXZ (2004), XXF (2004), CY (at least 2004 and 2008), and now, BCL, WL, and many others will join the list for 2012. You tell me all such ppl (including WC champion and runner up) should be left out, simply because other rank 100+ players born in another nation?

    Sure, walk over may give a blow to the sport image or excitement. Then what about kick out the WC champion and runner up, to make spot and please rank 100+ participant do any good????

  11. #232
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    A true champion should be physcially and mentally prepared for a hard fight in every round. If LCW has to rely on LD to be eliminated or wore out in an ealier round, then he's not a true champion. Same thing applies to LD or any others.

    Use the recent JO for example. If LD and CL fought to death in 2 hrs of 3 full sets in SF, and LCW took on the half way dead survivor and crowned to be a champion, then LD or CL fan can cry out loud say, LCW got a much easier SF, therefore, "not fair"... If that's the case, well you can go on and on and on...

    Plus, if whatever happened in "previous" round, is truely more important than "current round", then I guess there should not be "BYE" round any more. Any lower ranking players survived Qualification should all file a complain, as their much higher ranked opponents are "very well rested" before the match is begin...

    If all the result is based on "what if I can be luckier...", then there will be players like CY, XXZ, XXF, etc crying everyday, simply because they were "ELIMINATED" from OG even before it took place, thanks for the wonderful "limited entries per nation" rules.
    Last edited by LazyBuddy; 10-12-2011 at 10:34 PM.

  12. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    What do you think is the drawback for BWF to restrict any country from sending more than 2 players into any tournaments, as someone once suggested here? That would have been an easy resolution to this "problem". Why isn't this done? Please answer this question first. If there's any dispute among players from the same country, it should also be quite easily resolvable by having these players compete against each other in round robin fashion to select the best 2 in advance.
    Let me try to answer why...

    Say, your family has 4 kids, all hard working, all smart, all dreamed about going to the best college in the town. Then, you have troubled kids around like me, never study, creating trouble, cut classes, etc. Maybe we are lucky to simply stay out of jail, never dream about any advanced education.

    Now, time for HS graduation. Hey, there's the wonderful "2 per family" or "3 per family" rule. You are crying, while watching your brothers and sisters, and crooks like me going to college. You wonder why A+ student like you (3rd or 4th best of the school, only beatn by your OWN bro and sis) got left out, while barely F+ ppl like me can go to the SAME school, simply to waste more time from everyone.

    So, tell me how you feel if such happens? Please do not tell me "that's an insult", "that will never happened"... It did, numerous times. Ask XXZ and XXF in OG2004, CY for any OG, and probably BCL and WL in OG2012, they will tell you how nice being the "3rd or 4th best of the family" feels...

  13. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond;1769799[B
    Organization(s) that sell(s) tickets and televise(s) these events should make the appropriate rules and follow up, as they're the ones responsible for their paying customers.[/B]
    Really???

    Then please tell me why I have to wait for every 4 years of OG, dreaming about watching my defending WC champion / runner up to add 1 more crown to his / her list, instead, I was giving some 100+ ranking players, getting crashed in earlier rounds with a total of no more than 5 or 8 points instead???

    If you want the best match, throw away the limitation per nation. Now, players will play all out for themselves, without have to worry about their "lil bro or sister" who are under the same flag...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I was waiting for either you or raymond to point this out
    But I do agree; in fact, another line that I have also copied in the excerpts grabs me even more:
    Sadly, this was written in middle of 2008. It has now been 3+ years. Nothing much more than talk has happened.

  15. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Really???

    Then please tell me why I have to wait for every 4 years of OG, dreaming about watching my defending WC champion / runner up to add 1 more crown to his / her list, instead, I was giving some 100+ ranking players, getting crashed in earlier rounds with a total of no more than 5 or 8 points instead???

    If you want the best match, throw away the limitation per nation. Now, players will play all out for themselves, without have to worry about their "lil bro or sister" who are under the same flag...
    Uhh... Was 9:00 p.m. already too late for you, or 10:00 p.m. too late for me.

    Somehow, I couldn't connect your comments with your quote of what I said earlier. Are you saying that if there's no limit per nation, then perhaps in early rounds most other flags would be eliminated, and thus there's no need for any match-fixing? Is that what I'm hearing?

  16. #237
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    I don't understand why you have to worry about somebody's errors. If the National experts select their representatives based on biased criteria rather than competence, it's their decision and problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    I would like Badminton to follow Swimming which allows 2 participants per country to participate in the Olympic Games. Why? Because we would like to see who is the best in their own country as performed on the world stage (at the Olympic Games).

    Having only 1 participant per country can still be corrupted (National Associations may select the wrong one due to some wrong decisions).
    .

  17. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    A true champion should be physcially and mentally prepared for a hard fight in every round. If LCW has to rely on LD to be eliminated or wore out in an ealier round, then he's not a true champion. Same thing applies to LD or any others.

    Use the recent JO for example. If LD and CL fought to death in 2 hrs of 3 full sets in SF, and LCW took on the half way dead survivor and crowned to be a champion, then LD or CL fan can cry out loud say, LCW got a much easier SF, therefore, "not fair"... If that's the case, well you can go on and on and on...

    Plus, if whatever happened in "previous" round, is truely more important than "current round", then I guess there should not be "BYE" round any more. Any lower ranking players survived Qualification should all file a complain, as their much higher ranked opponents are "very well rested" before the match is begin...

    If all the result is based on "what if I can be luckier...", then there will be players like CY, XXZ, XXF, etc crying everyday, simply because they were "ELIMINATED" from OG even before it took place, thanks for the wonderful "limited entries per nation" rules.
    In JO, LD was drawn to meet CL in semi final. Every player is subject to drawing before the match. So there is nothing to complain about. Nothing unfair.

    It is not fairness in your context that we are talking about here. It is not easier or harder route to victory we are talking about here. We are talking about walk over or fake matches that is seem getting out of control now. Essentially, we are talking about professionalism and sportsmanship at the core of the events. Essentially, we are talking about get rid of constant cheating in badminton.

    In the example you have mentioned, in the spirit of sportsmanship and professionalism, in JO LD and CL must play and the winner will take on LCW.In the final, may the best man win. No argument. Nothing unfair.

    In contrast, LD gave way to CL is unfair to LCW. That is cheating and manipulation.

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