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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    TSB should really look at 2011DOSS draw and whatever SSs coming up leading to qualification for OLY12 if TSB/LCW are really seriously aiming for OLY gold and not these SS thingies. LCW could meet CJ at QF. LCW should give his all to KO CJ or play all out to wear CJ down even if LCW lose. If LCW wins, he should do a WO if he meets PG, so PG can be fresh into the final. That would increase the point gap between PG and CJ, and if PG wins DO11, what friends are for? I really meant what I say, I know I am bad, unsportsmanlike, whatever but so what, nice guy finish last, might as well play the game.
    Totally agree with you. Everyone should adopt the CHN strategy. It s unique to badminton. Maybe the sponsor should step in and join the party. Yonex could order the outcome.I was just thinking, not only BAM and PBSI can fix matches. India and Thailand have the numbers to do it too. Let s hope they let their players show their patriotic spirit in the coming CHN Open! Everyone do a CHN in China!

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by victory View Post
    After all we fans PAID to see good sports. We don't pay to see cheatings and manipulations. We want to see good sportmanship.
    Well, we are paying for the ticket, so it's easy for us to say that we want 5 hrs of die hard match at full strength like no tomrrow. However, as coach or player, s/he has the right to adjust to a different pirority, sometimes, a win, a safe approch, even a WO is for their best interests. Overall, their top pirority is to KEEP THEIR JOB for a long time, but not just for a 1 time hero moment.

    In any sports, even professional level, say NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc... When ever a result is already there (blow out), both coaches bench their stars, and send out all rookes, super bench warmers, etc. Did we pay all the big $$$ for the no-namers? Of course not. However, did any of the stars or teams get sued, or blamed for "not try hard" or "match fixing"???

    Many times, we see funny moments during the last week or two of regular season. The teams already secured playoff spots, usually rest all the stars, and send benches to play "easy", to avoid injuries. Therefore, the playoff chasers who happen to play against them get a much easier chance to pile up "W", which means huge advantage over other chasers. Just like this year, 1 of the good reason that TB getes in MLB playoff instead of BOS, is NYY taking extra easy for the last few games against TB... Did NYY get banned? Isn't that more in a way like LD "taking care" his buddies? So, if NYY did not get issues from MLB, not even a warning, why we have to hold LYB, LD, BWF all here for all these years???

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    “I take the issue of match fixing in our sport very seriously. To me it is as much a form of cheating as is doping. Not only does it cast a light of illegitimacy on our entire sport (and everyone involved with it), it also takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny.”
    Anna Rice got to participate in OG, at the cost of better players like XXF, ZL (08 level). Never have to metion there are tons of relatively no name players from the power houses (not just CHN), can easily beat many ranked players like Anna.

    And after taking advantage, she has the guts to say "takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny"??? Well, Anna, you are the "thief", XXF and ZL (and many others we do not even know) are the victims...

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    People in Peru don't really care about Lin Dan or Taufik or XXF or Minatsu, but if one of their countrymen were playing badminton at the OG, you can bet your sweet patootie they'd be watching their man on television. If he made it to the round of 32 or whatever, he'd be a national hero. Or heroine.
    Exactly because narrow minded "fans" like this, this sport is in trouble.

    If all fans all like that, baskeball should never gain this much popularity global wise. In OG 92, US dream team beat all others with a margin of 30+ points. If all the "fans" simply refuse to watch, refuse to accept the fact that "we need to improve ourselves", or simply whinning / blaming the rule books, etc, then we will never see today that so many other nations catching up, and give US a good run for the money in tournaments.

    So, if the basketball assosications around the world know what to do to IMPROVE THEMSELVES, (but not keep blaming US), why can't our badminton fans try to do the same?

    We are talking about the sport right now. We should support players from any nation. I respect all representatives, regardless which flag s/he carries.

  5. #260
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    Wow! What can I say? You are a wizard. Take a look at Loh's post below

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...orruption-free


    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Totally agree with you. Everyone should adopt the CHN strategy. It s unique to badminton. Maybe the sponsor should step in and join the party. Yonex could order the outcome.I was just thinking, not only BAM and PBSI can fix matches. India and Thailand have the numbers to do it too. Let s hope they let their players show their patriotic spirit in the coming CHN Open! Everyone do a CHN in China!

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    "You gotta earn the right within the framework of rules established."
    So, like many politicians who ruin the society, the "easiest" way to catch up, is NOT train yourself but to change the rule book. Even if the rule clearly intend to rob someone, we still tell the victim to shut up.

    Let me bring up an extreme example. Say, I am a corrupted lawmaker, and I took away your "self defense" right. Then, when I try to rob you, you kicked my @$$ instead. Now, I am waving the rule book up and down, and point your noise say, "hey, you are the criminal", which the fact is, everyonee knows you are the true victim.

    You get the point now? Ppl like LYB, LD, CJ, CL, etc are the victim of the OG rule. They need to keep their job, while under the unfavorable rule above their head. If you are in their shoes, what you want to do? Still play all out, losing the title to an outside, then get fired tomorrow?

    As I am writing, I am watching a college football game right now. The winning team (by 1 point) on purposely let the clock run down (QB knee down) for the last 90 seconds. Even the commentator said, if somehow the other team get the ball back, they have a legit chance to cause an upset.

    So, let me ask your "sportsmanship" supporters. Why the leading team coach / player not try to make some plays at the end? Why can't they have the guts to take the risk (turn over result in a lose), and be a man, and give every penny of my ticket worth? Why they only played real game for 58.5 minutes, instead of 60? Why they have to "cheat" (take advantage of current rule) to win? Because, their top pirority is to WIN, be it pretty or not. Can you imagine what will happen, if they did get a turn over, and lose? By then, I am afraid that no only someone will his job, and us fans instead of praise them for "sportmanship", we will laugh our rear end off, saying "what an idiot".

    Welcome to the real world...

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Anna Rice got to participate in OG, at the cost of better players like XXF, ZL (08 level). Never have to metion there are tons of relatively no name players from the power houses (not just CHN), can easily beat many ranked players like Anna.

    And after taking advantage, she has the guts to say "takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny"??? Well, Anna, you are the "thief", XXF and ZL (and many others we do not even know) are the victims...
    This has got to be the most ironic post in this thread. If Anna is a thief, what does that make the CBA?

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Anna Rice got to participate in OG, at the cost of better players like XXF, ZL (08 level). Never have to metion there are tons of relatively no name players from the power houses (not just CHN), can easily beat many ranked players like Anna.

    And after taking advantage, she has the guts to say "takes away the right of players to pursue their own destiny"??? Well, Anna, you are the "thief", XXF and ZL (and many others we do not even know) are the victims...
    You're still singing the same tune. Now you've gone a couple of steps further and lumped the OG committee with all the corrupt politicians in the world who have one agenda: to screw you and people like you, and specifically, China! That is apart from cleverly (or not so cleverly) confusing the issues of regular BWF tournaments with OG qualification.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Well, we are paying for the ticket, so it's easy for us to say that we want 5 hrs of die hard match at full strength like no tomrrow. However, as coach or player, s/he has the right to adjust to a different pirority, sometimes, a win, a safe approch, even a WO is for their best interests. Overall, their top pirority is to KEEP THEIR JOB for a long time, but not just for a 1 time hero moment.

    In any sports, even professional level, say NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc... When ever a result is already there (blow out), both coaches bench their stars, and send out all rookes, super bench warmers, etc. Did we pay all the big $$$ for the no-namers? Of course not. However, did any of the stars or teams get sued, or blamed for "not try hard" or "match fixing"???

    Many times, we see funny moments during the last week or two of regular season. The teams already secured playoff spots, usually rest all the stars, and send benches to play "easy", to avoid injuries. Therefore, the playoff chasers who happen to play against them get a much easier chance to pile up "W", which means huge advantage over other chasers. Just like this year, 1 of the good reason that TB getes in MLB playoff instead of BOS, is NYY taking extra easy for the last few games against TB... Did NYY get banned? Isn't that more in a way like LD "taking care" his buddies? So, if NYY did not get issues from MLB, not even a warning, why we have to hold LYB, LD, BWF all here for all these years???
    Are you really NOT THERE??? Read your above post carefully. And you use those apples-to-oranges situations to justify the walkout/walkover issues we are discussing?? Its pretty obvious that you either don't care to think objectively before you post, OR, maybe you aren't capable of that exercise. OR maybe you know exactly what you're up to... Your earlier post actually sums up your attitude:

    WO in earlier round (legit or fixing), it's other ppl's problem.

  10. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fidget View Post
    Cobalt's post puts certain things in the right light. There have been lots of vitriolic posts about how certain players are cheaters, etc. But they are simply following orders. If they didn't, they would be (?have been) replaced by someone who would.
    ___

    SO, if there is a problem, what, seriously, are the options for BWF?

    -If players represented themselves or their clubs, instead of countries, that would dissipate the power of any one manager. But that's unlikely to be feasible.

    -Fewer ranking points for a win with a walkover? Don't see how that is fair to honest folks.

    - Some have floated the idea of an "independent" doctor to confirm all injuries? A doctor's job is to alleviate suffering, not to police a rank-fixing scandal. There are lots of illnesses for which there are no solid objective signs --- only symptoms. As may have been said on Star Trek: "Darn it, Jim, I'm a doctor not a lie detector!"

    -Monetary fines? Suspensions? But who is to judge this? What grievance mechanism will there be for those who feel they are falsely accused? How could this not ignite nationalistic uproar in BWF which would lead to it being less effective than many of you say it is already?
    ___
    There are some huge brains out there in Badminton Central. I, for one, am keen to hear realistic ideas.
    It's the fans. The fans are the ones supporting it, the sames ones are also the people who can be detrimental to the sport. Just one fella holding up a picket sign "No more this, no more that... we are fed up" etc, can do serious damage (at least the sport image) on live tv. That also leaves up to who will be brave enough to stand up to this 'sham' which we are delving into until the cows come home with nothing to change the scenario. It is when someone or something happens that rocks the comfortable boat the BWF is sitting on, only then will they have the momentum to start doing something, whether it's fruitful or not, that's another matter.

    Otherwise, everything is just wishy-washy hopefuls for now.

  11. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Exactly because narrow minded "fans" like this, this sport is in trouble.
    Yeah, it's aall those "narrow-minded fans" from places like Peru who are causing all the problems with badminton. Right!!! I hate to tell you, but you just blew it, again.

    If all fans all like that, baskeball should never gain this much popularity global wise. In OG 92, US dream team beat all others with a margin of 30+ points. If all the "fans" simply refuse to watch, refuse to accept the fact that "we need to improve ourselves", or simply whinning / blaming the rule books, etc, then we will never see today that so many other nations catching up, and give US a good run for the money in tournaments.
    "whining" and "blaming" does not justify someone cheating. Get real. Move on.

    So, if the basketball assosications around the world know what to do to IMPROVE THEMSELVES, (but not keep blaming US), why can't our badminton fans try to do the same?
    Maybe because we don't like to be screwed over by manipulators? And if basketball asspociations around the world really knew all they needed to improve themselves, the US would be just another nation playing the game, not a powerhouse. And remember, basketball is a team sport; badminton is essentially an individual sport that can be played by teams in certain events.

    We are talking about the sport right now. We should support players from any nation. I respect all representatives, regardless which flag s/he carries.
    Light finally shines through!!! Hooray!!!! That's not exactly the song you were singing earlier.

    I cannot have any more serious discussion with you. Its pretty obvious you are just spouting off because you believe you've found a "cause" and a few thoughts, never mind that each third thought contradicts or invalidates the other ones.

  12. #267
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    And purist I shall remain!

    I believe changes will be coming but maybe not fast enough for most people here. I think in China, more private badminton clubs are being setup and run by former national players. Maybe this will change the situation!?


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you have said. From a purist's point of view....
    However, this world is a "work in progress." as Buzz Perry may have confided to Butch Haynes. Or the other way around.

    I also believe there are many culture-based values, and there are also some universal values that are supposed to bond human beings regardless of culture or backgrond, individuals or groups. But all that is I suspect, for another discussion.

    But I'd just like to point out that in the context of "right to pursue one's destiny" wrt to the OG, where should one propose to draw the line? At the first 500 players in the world? The first 1000? 5000? How fair is fair? Does "understanding and acceptance" extend to accomodating the demands of the top 20 most powerful countries in the world? 25? 40? 50? With so many forces and conditions, restrictions and considerations, the OG organisers have to always work within the constructs of what is possible and plausible, what is controllable and do-able. Such a framework will always displease someone, sometime, and those who want to find fault will always be able to do so, just as those who wish to manipulate it will always do so, as well (sorry, but it needs to be said.) Under the circumstances, the Oly committee has done a great job - they've had over 100 years of bitching and fighting to fine-tune their act!

    As for our discussion, I would like to point you to post #245, right up there on this very page...

  13. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    And purist I shall remain!

    I believe changes will be coming but maybe not fast enough for most people here. I think in China, more private badminton clubs are being setup and run by former national players. Maybe this will change the situation!?
    I hold a purist's viewpoint in very high regard; I try to emulate that myself, but oftentimes get mired in the bylanes and sandtraps of parochial arguments.

    More people playing badminton anywhere, in any conditions, is welcome with open arms!!! The CBSL is a great thing; other countries are also beginning to go in that direction. Hopefully it will ring in positive change, yes! If we can nudge it along, I for one am willing to do what it takes...

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    I believe it will. Clubs (not national associations) with their own players development programs should make the difference. But it will take its time to get there!


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    I hold a purist's viewpoint in very high regard; I try to emulate that myself, but oftentimes get mired in the bylanes and sandtraps of parochial arguments.

    More people playing badminton anywhere, in any conditions, is welcome with open arms!!! The CBSL is a great thing; other countries are also beginning to go in that direction. Hopefully it will ring in positive change, yes! If we can nudge it along, I for one am willing to do what it takes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    No, It is you who are being silly, if you disregard the dissadvantage to have to play a teammate who reads eachothers games close to 100% and to exclude the possibility of getting two players trough to the next round. I would say currently LD,CL, and CJ are better than ALL players (excluding LCW) that was placed in the top-half in JO.. So you are just being silly if you don't regard that draw as a dissadvantage, seen from a Chineese perspective..

    BTW, you always have the option of controlling the outcome of a match.. if you are good enough...



    I agree that WOs are not what we fans want... But I think you are exhaggerating how much the "fans" really looks forward to a team "internal" semi anyway... To me it seems more like the ones that are "pissed" that LCW didn't win wine about it and focuses on the WO rather than the fact that a) the singles final was great badminton b) CL spent more time on court in JO than LCW despite the WO! c) LCW was not in his greatest form.

    As a fan I looked at it this way.. LD and LCW almost always comes up against eachother in all tournaments.. and frankly I thought it was more enjoyable to watch something "different" in this JO final.. So CL vs. LCW was a great final matchup. I would not be so excited to watch a sparring match (how many times do you think LD and CL plays eachother on a day-to-day basis).. They know eachother too well, and with no coaching there will be even less "tactical" issues. Quite a boring matchup anyway for fans imop.

    Your logic is gooofy.. By forcing LD to play with a minor injury would not raise the quality of the game at all.
    This is the most hilarious-out-of-this-world opinion that does not hold water I've ever heard. First of all, do you even understand the title of this thread? Why suddenly LCW become your punching bag?

    We at BC are focusing on the solution to put an end to this walkover/match fixing menace for the good of badminton fans in general, and not specifically pinpointing any player/country. It is when this problem is put to an end that no other player/country will practice this unsavory practice and the restores the image of the sport. Put back into its real meaning.

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  17. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakito View Post
    This is the most hilarious-out-of-this-world opinion that does not hold water I've ever heard. First of all, do you even understand the title of this thread? Why suddenly LCW become your punching bag?

    We at BC are focusing on the solution to put an end to this walkover/match fixing menace for the good of badminton fans in general, and not specifically pinpointing any player/country. It is when this problem is put to an end that no other player/country will practice this unsavory practice and the restores the image of the sport. Put back into its real meaning.
    The title of the thread is "The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs"..

    I do not understand why you think LCW is my "punching bag"?

    I do not think a chn-vs-chn a ina-vs-ina or a kor-vs-kor WO really isnt the matches that sells loads of tickets anyway.

    If we are talking marketing problems for badminton, i think occasional WOs and injuries are a minor problem. The bigger picture is that prize money is puny (partly because the prizemoney, ticket sales, is divided across 5 separate tournaments, each event! ) and ranking points of olympics etc. are worth MORE than the prizemoney in tournaments for players/coanches.. This is the big picure and the real issue. If the tour becomes more indivdual and less Country/olympics oriented and more focused on tournament prizemoney with individual MS-tournaments. I doubt this would be an issue at all. If we get rid of the "teams" we will get rid of "team"-matches in individual events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LazyBuddy View Post
    Well, we are paying for the ticket, so it's easy for us to say that we want 5 hrs of die hard match at full strength like no tomrrow. However, as coach or player, s/he has the right to adjust to a different pirority, sometimes, a win, a safe approch, even a WO is for their best interests. Overall, their top pirority is to KEEP THEIR JOB for a long time, but not just for a 1 time hero moment.In any sports, even professional level, say NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc... When ever a result is already there (blow out), both coaches bench their stars, and send out all rookes, super bench warmers, etc. Did we pay all the big $$$ for the no-namers? Of course not. However, did any of the stars or teams get sued, or blamed for "not try hard" or "match fixing"???Many times, we see funny moments during the last week or two of regular season. The teams already secured playoff spots, usually rest all the stars, and send benches to play "easy", to avoid injuries. Therefore, the playoff chasers who happen to play against them get a much easier chance to pile up "W", which means huge advantage over other chasers. Just like this year, 1 of the good reason that TB getes in MLB playoff instead of BOS, is NYY taking extra easy for the last few games against TB... Did NYY get banned? Isn't that more in a way like LD "taking care" his buddies? So, if NYY did not get issues from MLB, not even a warning, why we have to hold LYB, LD, BWF all here for all these years???
    Basket ball players and fans don't care about playing straight and sportsmanship?no my problem. Do I care? You have all the rights to talk about basket ball, just go to basket ball forum. We are talking about badminton over here.I don't watch basket ball. I don't know what are you talking about in your basket ball example and I don't care. I am a badminton fan. I care about sportsmanship in badminton. Thousand of us here at BC care about sportsmanship in badminton. Millions of badminton fans around the world care about sportsmanship in badminton. Why do you think the chinese team get booed when they stage fake matches and WO? Why do you think we voice our discontent over here at BC? We care about sportsmanship and we are trying to find a solution. So if you think badminton fans should care about sportsmanship and we should tolerate these sort of manipulation, you are dreaming. You are the one that is not living in the real world. Who are you trying to convince? You think you can argue a way out for the chinese team? So that we fans and BWF should accept constant WO and match fixing done by the chinese team?If you think the chinese team spit on sportsmanship is ok then I am afraid there is not the talk about here. You can stay where you are. We have our stand. Slowly but surely, I believe a better solution and enforcement will beimplemented.Oh yes, cobalt, thank you for creating this thread.

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