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  1. #358
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Nope, it's just that everyone is very active on many other recent threads about the OG, where they are also discussing the same issue, in a way... very heated discussions!

    There is even a poll asking who is to blame.

    Walkovers, withdrawals, match-fixing, purposely playing to lose, etc etc.... all these are actions that go against any sporting code of conduct. Many people will condone such actions nowadays (sadly) depending on their personal allegiances.

    Others will actually condone it as a matter of "principle". Their contention is that the game is no longer just a game: it is a professional livelihood; and when it suits them it (the game/result) becomes a matter of national pride. There is no rational argument you can have with such people.

    But what happened at the OG was perversely good for the sport: A flashpoint that forced the IOC to bend the BWF's arm into taking action. Now the ball is firmly in BWF's court. What do they intend doing? How soon will they do it? Will they do enough? Will they get it right?

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  3. #359
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    I couldn't read through all the posts, there's just way too many. but i think i got the basic points people are trying to make. I want to do three things with this post. 1. list all the reasons that causes this W/O issue. 2. compare badminton to a similar sport, namely, GO. 3. make suggestions on how this issue can be fixed.

    Reasons:
    1. China is too strong. Direct result is we often end up with matches between chinese players. Who can tell me Taufik's international match record against another Indonesian player when it is not a finals match? I don't think it has happened that often.

    2. Chinese system is "broken". i put quotes around broken, because some can reasonably argue that you can't call a system broken if it just produced 5 golds at the Olympics, with or without cheating. But then again, the coaches and the higher ups definitely control the players such that they are no longer individuals. People in the more westernized nations do not like that, so, it is "broken".

    3. BWF system is broken. the exception for the 4th best world ranking to enter the Olympics is definitely the *direct* cause of many of the W/O's Chen Jin received. Without it, there is no reason for anyone to just let him win. At least I don't see why.

    4. Badminton, as it is today, cannot be truly called an individual sport. Players cannot train by themselves, unlike tennis or golf. In fact, i believe many of the national team train/live/eat/sleep together. When that happens, there is a TEAM. (and yes, I do agree that once on the courts, it is individual competition).

    5. Badminton's elimination format. An American sprinter will never NEED to give another American sprinter a walk-over. They just run as fast as they can, can that's all they need to do.

    6. People's understanding of fair competition and expectation of intranational matches in an international event MAY be unrealistic. All the spectators want to see the hardest fought matches every time they sat in their prized seats. Well, that is not happening now, didn't happen before, and will not happen in the future. And I am not just talking about the Chinese players. The Chinese players get noticed because they are at the highest level playing the most prestigious tournaments.

    The above observations and opinions are based on elimination style brackets only. I have entirely different opinions on pooled play.

    Compare badminton to the sport of GO:
    1. both are dominated by a few countries. But in GO, China and Korea are about equally strong, where as in Badminton, China seems to be only nation that can consistently produce 2 to 3 into the final 4, all the time.
    2. both are elimination style competition.
    3. I almost never hear about allegations of match fixing in GO.
    4. Since GO is often broadcasted on the internet, one can easily tell how many people are watching a certain match. In the event where 5 players in the final 8 are from China, I see a 3-1 ratio of people watching the international match to the intranational match. This is where I think the badminton spectators may have unrealistic expectations. Everyone please ask yourselves, do you really care about that match? Do you really expect an all-out hard fought fight? Or, do you simply think that it is not fair to the other player who is playing a real match?
    5. Finally, in international GO tournaments, players from the same country are always separated as much as possible. Which, incidentally, we also do in badminton. But isn't that interesting? We do try to separate the players from the same team. So, we DO recognize that this (china vs china) is not a good thing and we have rules setup to prevent that from happening.

    Some of my ideas and thoughts on how to prevent the W/O issue in the future.

    * other countries need to get stronger. The best way to prevent a chinese/chinese walk-over is to prevent a chinese/chinese match in the first place.
    * Individualize the sport. That is to say, anyone can enter any tournament as an individual, instead of through a national organization. (this will have vast consequences, and deserves its own thread)
    * Wait for the chinese system to change. (and it won't)
    * Change the Olympic qualification system. Put a hard limit on the number of players per country. No exceptions.
    * We can stop expecting so much. Did you expect Bubka to break his record by 1/4 of a inch or half a foot?

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  5. #360
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    That was a great sumary, mapcar! ...especially for one who just got in on the discussion; and that helps, of course, in maintaining a clear mind...

    Re. your last point (analogy to Bubka's incremental record-breaking) I would just like to point out that Bubka did it in an era where he was assured of monetary reward only each time he broke the record. Large 7-digit Dollar deals did not really exist back then to secure his future, even for a superstar like he was.

    The "expectation" here I suppose, is that BWF gets it's act together and establishes a system that effectively rules out many of the avenues for "creative behaviour." It is also imperative that they establish a system of deterrents, and the ability to enforce these deterrents without second thought, if necessary. What I see now is that they have degenerated into a fairly toothless organism that is floundering in some direction that appears to be "forward."

  6. #361
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    I for one don't see a problem in match fixing. It doesn't stop other countries from winning. China is just arranging which of their players should get medals.

    Match fixing is bound to happen in any competition sport.

  7. #362
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow As a Badminton fan, I follow players, not countries

    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    I for one don't see a problem in match fixing. It doesn't stop other countries from winning. China is just arranging which of their players should get medals.

    Match fixing is bound to happen in any competition sport.
    .
    I disagree.

    As a Badminton fan, I follow players, not countries.

    When I realised and/or found that Lin Dan (our best CHN No.1 player) has been asked to give walkovers/artificially-fixed (to lose) matches to his teammates, ..., it would discourage me from following Lin Dan's performance in future.

    I wish to follow who is our best Badminton player, not who is our best Badminton acting player.

    To follow acting, I would rather go and watch a movie/film instead.
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 08-08-2012 at 07:42 PM.

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  9. #363
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    I for one don't see a problem in match fixing. It doesn't stop other countries from winning. China is just arranging which of their players should get medals.

    Match fixing is bound to happen in any competition sport.
    Why do you not see match fixing as a problem? When you answer please take note of recent reactions by badminton fans(it was an unhappy one) and also the fact that tournaments needs sponsors. Thanks

  10. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    I for one don't see a problem in match fixing. It doesn't stop other countries from winning. China is just arranging which of their players should get medals.

    Match fixing is bound to happen in any competition sport.
    It could stop other countries from winning by the fact that the players are fresher, generally less tired and less muscle fatigued for their next match. Also the order of opponents played plays a big part. imagine going into a final having played 3 hard opponents, going 3 sets each, previously compared to being in the final and having played 1 easy opponent, getting a walkover and having a rest and playing another easy opponent (because the walk over jigged the playoff positions).

  11. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    Why do you not see match fixing as a problem? When you answer please take note of recent reactions by badminton fans(it was an unhappy one) and also the fact that tournaments needs sponsors. Thanks
    It was an unhappy one for those that bought tickets or to people oblivious to the fact that: in a competition sport especially one where you're representing your country: MATCH FIXING is not uncommon. Sponsor wise: this is because BWF has always done an ass job at promoting. Just look at how delayed their video uploading is on YouTube. The views on the videos aren't little. The other problem is that badminton is primarily played in a lot of poorer countries. Where the fans don't actually have that much money. Just look at all the threads on BC in the equipment section: which racquet should i buy, but i only have a budget of XX. A good contrast to this is golf: the viewership is almost the same if not less, but the fans have money and so the sport has money.

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    It could stop other countries from winning by the fact that the players are fresher, generally less tired and less muscle fatigued for their next match. Also the order of opponents played plays a big part. imagine going into a final having played 3 hard opponents, going 3 sets each, previously compared to being in the final and having played 1 easy opponent, getting a walkover and having a rest and playing another easy opponent (because the walk over jigged the playoff positions).
    Well blame it on the fact that the other players "suck" and i put a quotation on that because i don't genuinely believe they suck, but they are sure having a hard time beating China. Look at Malaysia for example: They only have 1 presentable singles player and 1 presentable doubles pair. They still get to the finals. Where's the problem?
    The order of playing? That's just luck of the draw. China could be not playing at all and you could of drawn against Peter Gade, Taufik etc in a row. Sure it plays a role. But you will only see the chinese in the SF/QF/F. At that stage does it really matter which Chinese player you play against? It will always be a hard fought battle.

  12. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    The order of playing? That's just luck of the draw.
    Thats the point though. its not the luck of the draw any more when you can dictate who you play by losing certain matches.

    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    does it really matter which Chinese player you play against? It will always be a hard fought battle.
    again, the point was to NOT meet China next round and play a team that "sucks"

    China also had an extra reason which was to not knock out their own country so they get more medals.

  13. #367
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    It was an unhappy one for those that bought tickets or to people oblivious to the fact that: in a competition sport especially one where you're representing your country: MATCH FIXING is not uncommon. Sponsor wise: this is because BWF has always done an ass job at promoting. Just look at how delayed their video uploading is on YouTube. The views on the videos aren't little. The other problem is that badminton is primarily played in a lot of poorer countries. Where the fans don't actually have that much money. Just look at all the threads on BC in the equipment section: which racquet should i buy, but i only have a budget of XX. A good contrast to this is golf: the viewership is almost the same if not less, but the fans have money and so the sport has money.
    You highlighted my question but never answered it. Just interested in your opinion as you said their is no problem with match fixing. Given the fact that there are many problems like crowd dissatisfaction, it actually breaks the rules and brings the sport into disrepute and also if this keeps happening what sponsors will want to associate themselves with the sport. That's 3 problems for starters.

  14. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    Thats the point though. its not the luck of the draw any more when you can dictate who you play by losing certain matches.
    some might say, that these players have earned the right to do the dictating, by winning the other two group matches.

    Let's change the format, such that after the group matches, the elimination bracket is randomly re-drawn. I personally, don't see nothing terribly wrong with this format. For the sake of the discussion, let's call this a legit format for the moment.

    Now, there is absolutely NO reason for the two pairs who's already advanced to either win OR lose the final match. They are forced to play the match by rule. And they will probably give the audience an okay exhibition match and conserve their energy for later. Is that kind of "not playing hard" any different from this kind of "not playing hard"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    again, the point was to NOT meet China next round and play a team that "sucks"

    China also had an extra reason which was to not knock out their own country so they get more medals.
    and what is wrong with a country trying to win more medals?

  15. #369
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mapcar View Post
    and what is wrong with a country trying to win more medals?
    Nothing. Buuuuuuut..... if you do not do it within the rules then everything. Simple. The latter being the context in which we are talking.

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    they earned the right to go through to the next round. they didnt earn the right to dictate the placings. that was due to the flawed format. now if the format was 'if you win, you get to pick your draw in the next round' then the players have incentive to play to win. the players shouldnt have been put into the position where there was no incentive to win and benefit from losing.

    nothing wrong with a country trying to win more medal by being better than the others. but the way it would have been if they wernt disqualified meant theyd robbed another teams potential medal by simply not playing.

    all within the rules of this flawed format. except for not being queensbury

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    they earned the right to go through to the next round. they didnt earn the right to dictate the placings. that was due to the flawed format. now if the format was 'if you win, you get to pick your draw in the next round' then the players have incentive to play to win. the players shouldnt have been put into the position where there was no incentive to win and benefit from losing.
    That is interesting. So, we have 4 1st place pairs, and 4 2nd place pairs. Your suggestion is to have the 4 1st place pairs randomly draw for an order, and then pick their opponents according to that order? I think i like it.

  18. #372
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post

    all within the rules of this flawed format. except for not being queensbury
    Wrong, Go read the BWF rules of conduct, they are still rules after all. Olympic format was not flawed it worked perfectly, It is just some countries decided to abuse the format. BWF should stand strong I am starting to think all tournaments should be group format as it is easier to expose offending parties, then maybe we could eradicate the problem rather than just being blackmailed into trying certain formats to curtail the problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    Nothing. Buuuuuuut..... if you do not do it within the rules then everything. Simple. The latter being the context in which we are talking.
    I'm sorry, but you're terribly misled in life, if you think everything is black and white.
    Badminton or any sport in reality is really a business to everyone. There are going to be grey areas. This happens to be one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    they earned the right to go through to the next round. they didnt earn the right to dictate the placings. that was due to the flawed format. now if the format was 'if you win, you get to pick your draw in the next round' then the players have incentive to play to win. the players shouldnt have been put into the position where there was no incentive to win and benefit from losing.

    nothing wrong with a country trying to win more medal by being better than the others. but the way it would have been if they wernt disqualified meant theyd robbed another teams potential medal by simply not playing.

    all within the rules of this flawed format. except for not being queensbury
    You are exactly right, why would any player want to do something detrimental to their chances? So you have inadvertently agreed with my statement that match fixing is fine and that this all happened because of a flawed system. Thank you.

    Robbery or not, I don't think in the case of WD, there is a team any more competitive than China's.
    Conserving energy or putting on a decent exhibition match level play?

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