The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

**nokh88** · 09-27-2011, 04:47 AM

Some places, the police are working hand in glove with the thieves. The police will come to the scene after the thieves have gone.

***kwun*** · 09-27-2011, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by pjswift

Haven t you heard of police being paid in many different ways by the syndicate so the police can protect them and their actions?

are you implying something regarding the BWF/China Team scenario?

**renbo** · 09-27-2011, 05:06 AM

I think nokh88 has a point. Are not some members of the BWF's ruling body ex-members of the CHN national squad?

**eaglehelang** · 09-27-2011, 05:22 AM

Originally Posted by renbo

4) Stay with the present rules and rely on morality, that is, shame. It is then the public's responsability to shame the bad people : if CHN team (or any other) don't play according to rules, then BOO them everytime they play (including other disciplines). The team has to bear responsibility, as it is the team that cheat.
Perhaps some would think this is not enough. On the contrary, it is more powerful then any rule. If those national organizations do cheat for glory it means they are subject to shame (shame and glory go together). If a team get Boo everywhere, heads would roll, including very successful one like LYB.
But to implement such a collective behavior there is nothing else to do but sharing our opinions and voicing them.

I dont think they would care, they win the title/gold, which is most important to them. Unless there's protection for the whistle blowers(players) & serious legal consequences for the guilty(sacking, jail term), no whistle will be blowing

***kwun*** · 09-27-2011, 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by renbo

I think nokh88 has a point. Are not some members of the BWF's ruling body ex-members of the CHN national squad?

not at all.

zero out of 11 BWF Executive Board members are from China.

1 out of 14 BWF Council members are from China.

**nokh88** · 09-27-2011, 05:30 AM

Not wonder CHN is so pissed off with BWF. Such a powerhouse in badminton but so poor representation.

**Yoppy** · 09-27-2011, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by pjswift

Haven t you heard of police being paid in many different ways by the syndicate so the police can protect them and their actions?

See thats another way the criminal can get to it. And it happens everywhere even in developed country such as Australia, the only two things are different:

1. The incentives level varies from places to places. It applies to both the police and the criminals.
2. The level of protection vs the modus operandi are also different from places to places.

So one can conclude that all of the protective measures are there only to minimise, scare off and keep up the pace of the crime. And in no way any measure will totally eliminate the crime.

Back to the WO issue, here are my suggestions:

1. If a player WOed againts his/her opponent from the same country, he/she will automatically lost his/her points gained during the tournament as well as the previous tournament. And the points deducted will be equally distributed to 3 players rank below him/her.

2. If a player WOed againts his/her opponent from the same country fora total of 4 times in the last 24 months (or 2 times during 9 or 12 months), he/she will served a total banned from participating BWF sanctioned tournament for at least 6 months.

3. I also like the idea mentioned by V1lau "they should let the athlete(s) who lost originally to the person who withdrew, to advance and play instead of giving a walkover!"

4. On top of points deduction, and just like in other sports match fixing case, the guilty party must surender the title as well as the price money.

5. Also found this articles in specifically calling for the sacking of LYB: http://www.badminton-information.com...ch-fixing.html

here are a few match fixing cases that perhaps relevant

1. Singapore Formula One crashgate: Renault Formula One crash controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault...sh_controversy
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6840760.ece

2. Floyd Landis doping case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis_doping_case

3. 2006 Italian football scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_It...otball_scandal

**Yoppy** · 09-27-2011, 09:00 AM

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=416666

China admits match fixing in Olympic badminton

16:47 AEST Sat Mar 22 2008
AFP
China's badminton head coach has admitted ordering a player to throw a crucial tie at the 2004 Olympic Games.
Coach Li Yongbo told China Central Television's sports channel that the 2004 Athens Olympics semi-final was fixed to improve China's chances of winning a gold medal.
Two Chinese players, Zhou Mi and Zhang Ning, were drawn together in the semi-final tie.
After watching Zhang win the first game, the coaching staff decided that she would have a better shot at winning the final against a non-Chinese opponent rather than Zhou.
"After the first game, Zhang looked in better all round shape," Li was quoted as saying in a report on the interview by Sina.Com, a popular website.
"So we told Zhou Mi not to work too hard and let Zhang into the final."
Li said he and the Chinese team had nothing to be ashamed of.
"It shows our patriotism and in fact I am proud of it."
Zhang won the gold as planned and is expected to defend her Olympic title at the Beijing Games here in August.
For her part, Zhou quit the Chinese team and went to Hong Kong. She is currently hoping to qualify to represent the territory in badminton at the Beijing Olympics.
Li's admission revived long-standing concern about behind-the-scenes arrangements at top international table tennis and badminton events by Chinese teams.
The practice first surfaced in 1987, when He Zhili ignored an order to throw a semi-final to teammate Guan Jianhua at the 1987 world table tennis championships.
She went on to win the final, but was left out of the 1988 Seoul Olympic team as punishment.
In badminton, suspicions are still rife about Wang Dan's defeat to teammate Chen Jin in the recent all-England final, with some experts suggesting that Wang threw the game.

**raymond** · 09-27-2011, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Yoppy

1. Singapore Formula One crashgate: Renault Formula One crash controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault...sh_controversy
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle6840760.ece

2. Floyd Landis doping case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Landis_doping_case

3. 2006 Italian football scandal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_It...otball_scandal

Are we comparing apples with apples? E.g. doping is illegal in most athletic events. But match-fixing? You can say they' still play by the regulations. They just have a longer view and a bigger plan than most other countries...

**eaglehelang** · 09-27-2011, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

Are we comparing apples with apples? E.g. doping is illegal in most athletic events. But match-fixing? You can say they' still play by the regulations. They just have a longer view and a bigger plan than most other countries...

Please refer example no 1 & 3

Match fixing includes taking bribes to intentionally lose a match
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fo...s-1593065.html

'Smaller' examples :
Lawn bowling, New Zealand
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/02...son/index.html
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0112-m3c6.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...llegation.html

Take note of the punishment for the guilty party

***kwun*** · 09-27-2011, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by kwun

not at all.

zero out of 11 BWF Executive Board members are from China.

1 out of 14 BWF Council members are from China.

Originally Posted by nokh88

Not wonder CHN is so pissed off with BWF. Such a powerhouse in badminton but so poor representation.

i believe that the representation is fair as the representation should not be related to the performance of the athletes.

***cobalt*** · 09-27-2011, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by eaglehelang

Please refer example no 1 & 3

Match fixing includes taking bribes to intentionally lose a match
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fo...s-1593065.html

'Smaller' examples :
Lawn bowling, New Zealand
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/SPORT/02...son/index.html
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0112-m3c6.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...llegation.html

Take note of the punishment for the guilty party

Yep. More recently and famously, the spot-fixing episode of the Pakistan cricket team on their tour of England last year, and the massive fallout that saw almost all their team members eventually removed from the game. That made the ICC create a stronger and more stringent series of checks and balances, empower a Task Force with more teeth, as well as a system for reporting, and actioning, that would help clean up the game to a large extent. The ICC at one stage even went so far as to take the chief honcho of the PCB aside for a chat to let him know that they would have to consider suspension of the PCB as a full member of the ICC, if the PCB didn't get smart pronto.

Recommended reading:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/c...ry/481330.html
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/c...ry/486024.html

Glossary:
ICC: International Cricket Council
PCB: Pakistan Cricket Board
Task Force: self-explainatory.
Teeth: What the BWF is sorely lacking.

**chris-ccc** · 09-27-2011, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

Are we comparing apples with apples? E.g. doping is illegal in most athletic events. But match-fixing? You can say they' still play by the regulations. They just have a longer view and a bigger plan than most other countries...

.
IMHO, we should discourage anyone who act dishonestly (like practicing fraud). If players agree to fix matches, we spectators would surely feel that we have been cheated/swindled watching them play.

We want to watch a real match, not a 'pretend' match.
.

***cobalt*** · 09-27-2011, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Chayady

This thread is under "Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating"
So, base on the rules of the games, i believe the rule allows WO or withdrawal.
But there is another point about inappropriate conduct which says about "honoruable and sportsmanlike".
Which i am sure this is what China team did over and over again (WO or withdraw when facing a country mate).
It is absolutely not honour to give your country-mate a benefit to have a day rest. It is breaching a sport value.
I believe if Thomas Lund want to do something, this point can be use to give a disciplinary action/fine.

Good observation!
You will also notice that phrases like "honourable and sportsmanlike" are subjective, and are subject to interpretation. Any action based on this phrase could easily be contested in court, if necessary. CBA would just love to embarrass BWF if such a situation ever came about. The phrase only has value for those who conduct their professional lives in alignment with such universal values. Not easy. To illustrate: have you ever seen a player refusing a point he knew he earned because of a linesman's incorrect call?

Regardless, the first and correct action would be to ascertain and prove beyond reasonable doubt that the reason for walkover (injury/sickness etc) is a valid one. A doctor's certificate is usually considered sufficient "evidence."

In top-level professional sports, doctors recommendations are always guided by the player's feedback on his/her condition i.e. muscle spasm, weakness in recurrent injury areas etc. and guided by the maxim that prevention is better than cure. On what grounds can the BWF take disciplinary action?

Coming to the reason why I started this thread under Rules/TournamentRegulation/Officiating...
because I believe here is where the weak link is to be found.

There has to be a reason (or reasons) why CBA does the shady stuff it does. It is also linked to it's objectives. It is actually operating strictly (legally) within the rules and regulations as set out in the BWF handbooks. What CBA does may be contrary to the spirit of playing a game, but is not breaking any rules or laws!

So, if you want to put an end (or control more effectively) the antics of the CBA, where would you look for answers?

**viver** · 09-27-2011, 05:57 PM

My apologies to remove part of your posting.

What I would like to ask is, why CBA? It is just because CBA is able to place more players in the advanced stages of the current competitions? I don't remember who posted an article here in BC, where Rudy Hartono discussed the 'strategies' employed to win international tournaments. If CBA is employing similar 'strategies', it means they learned from the more experienced powerhouse(s).

If the walkovers are perceived to be a problem, then the responsible organization/parties has to find a solution. To my understanding, to solve a problem, one has to be able to find the root cause. Maybe the root cause is known, but at the moment, has no resources to resolve the situation or to implement the solution.

Originally Posted by cobalt

...
So, if you want to put an end (or control more effectively) the antics of the CBA, where would you look for answers?

**Yoppy** · 09-27-2011, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

Are we comparing apples with apples? E.g. doping is illegal in most athletic events. But match-fixing? You can say they' still play by the regulations. They just have a longer view and a bigger plan than most other countries...

apple with apple?? Don't have to, each crime is unique. But sometimes you can judge the seriousness of the fault by looking at the other crimes.

**Yoppy** · 09-27-2011, 07:35 PM

If I have to choose only 1 party to blame for the whole thing, unfortunately it has to be BWF. Just look at what LYB said and done over the years, it's like the criminal is boosting about his raid to the world. It's like he's saying "lookie lookie BWF, you don't mind if I do this way, do you?" and BWF reply "of course NOT mr LI, be our guess, just do what you like to do"