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  1. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Good observation!
    You will also notice that phrases like "honourable and sportsmanlike" are subjective, and are subject to interpretation. Any action based on this phrase could easily be contested in court, if necessary. CBA would just love to embarrass BWF if such a situation ever came about. The phrase only has value for those who conduct their professional lives in alignment with such universal values. Not easy. To illustrate: have you ever seen a player refusing a point he knew he earned because of a linesman's incorrect call?

    Regardless, the first and correct action would be to ascertain and prove beyond reasonable doubt that the reason for walkover (injury/sickness etc) is a valid one. A doctor's certificate is usually considered sufficient "evidence."

    In top-level professional sports, doctors recommendations are always guided by the player's feedback on his/her condition i.e. muscle spasm, weakness in recurrent injury areas etc. and guided by the maxim that prevention is better than cure. On what grounds can the BWF take disciplinary action?

    Coming to the reason why I started this thread under Rules/TournamentRegulation/Officiating...
    because I believe here is where the weak link is to be found.

    There has to be a reason (or reasons) why CBA does the shady stuff it does. It is also linked to it's objectives. It is actually operating strictly (legally) within the rules and regulations as set out in the BWF handbooks. What CBA does may be contrary to the spirit of playing a game, but is not breaking any rules or laws!

    So, if you want to put an end (or control more effectively) the antics of the CBA, where would you look for answers?
    One thing that can be investigate more as being not "honourable and sportsmanlik" is the motive behind the wo/retire. I believe "trying to influence the outcome of the match" will fall perfectly in "not honourable and sportsmanlik" category. In this case BWF have to investigate whether the wo/retirement by China players will have any influence to the outcome of the match/next match. Looking at the modus operandi it looks very obvious to me that it will influence the outcome of the next match.
    LBY already confessed that he asked his player to give the match to get a better chance for his other player to win olimpic gold medal. This can be use as an evidence. To get more evidence maybe bwf should hire private investigator or even ask Assange if he has any recording about this

  2. #53
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viver View Post
    My apologies to remove part of your posting.

    What I would like to ask is, why CBA? It is just because CBA is able to place more players in the advanced stages of the current competitions? I don't remember who posted an article here in BC, where Rudy Hartono discussed the 'strategies' employed to win international tournaments. If CBA is employing similar 'strategies', it means they learned from the more experienced powerhouse(s).

    If the walkovers are perceived to be a problem, then the responsible organization/parties has to find a solution. To my understanding, to solve a problem, one has to be able to find the root cause. Maybe the root cause is known, but at the moment, has no resources to resolve the situation or to implement the solution.
    No apologies needed! It helps to drive attention to the subject. I will try and answer you in 2 parts.

    1. I will not deny that Rudy Hartono or some other person may well have advocated some 'strategies' to ensure Indonesia (or whichever country) maintain a stranglehold (or at least a dominating position) in the game. I don't personally know of this for sure, but I have read other posts on other threads from respected BCers maintaining the same claim. But that does not mean that CBA necessarily 'learnt' from the others in this regard. There are plenty good brains and strategists at CBA and the relevant Ministry of Sports (or whichever Government department the CBA answers to) and it has been clear for a long time now that CBA has chosen its own unique way to ensure their dominance. I would not condone the actions of the past, as much as I would not the actions of the present. But to obtain justification for your misdeeds by quoting some else's misdeeds, is to my mind, feeble. To quote Mahatma Gandhi, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Now CBA finds itself in the enviable position of dominance of the sport. They usually have some of the top 2, 3 or even 4 seeds in almost every tournament they decide to participate in. To a rational mind, the CBA should be the organisation with the least necessity of trying to gain questionable advantage. And yet it is almost always (over the past few years) the CBA who has done this. However, as has been also spoken of in this thread, it could be some other association in the future, who gains ascendancy over everyone else. It happens to be the CBA at present and in the immediate past, and that is why they are always front and centre of these discussions, naturally!

    2. The root cause (or set of causes or issues) is what we are driving to determine. Many BCers have a pretty good idea of all or some of the root, and hopefully their contribution here will help in driving attention to the key issues. (the OG timeline & qualification guidelines are obviously one of them.) As for resources, my personal opinion is that they are not unobtainable or extravagant, and that the ends (cleaning up our game and making it fair and open to every participant) certainly justifies the means!

    What are your thoughts?

  3. #54
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    .
    Talking about INA and CHN teams in the 1970's.

    It was reported that Rudy Hartono was not keen/interested to face the great Tang Xianhu.

    It's just that. There wasn't any 'match-fixing' involved.


    'Match-fixing' occurs when 'pretend' matches are played against teammates; Not when matches are not played against opponents. There is a difference.


    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 09-27-2011 at 11:38 PM.

  4. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    We want to watch a real match, not a 'pretend' match.
    .
    Have you ever watched any demo matches?

  5. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post
    Please refer example no 1 & 3
    Match fixing includes taking bribes to intentionally lose a match
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fo...s-1593065.html
    My goodness, this is getting worse and worse. Is someone bribed here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    If I have to choose only 1 party to blame for the whole thing, unfortunately it has to be BWF. Just look at what LYB said and done over the years, it's like the criminal is boosting about his raid to the world. It's like he's saying "lookie lookie BWF, you don't mind if I do this way, do you?" and BWF reply "of course NOT mr LI, be our guess, just do what you like to do"
    But surely, if BWF does mind, they could restrict the number of entries per countries to 2 only, as TwoBeer suggested, for example.

    Is it the case that other countries don't want to do it, or that they can't do it? What's the main moral judgement here? That the audience is betrayed? Well, who puts the audience there and earn money? As far as these countries are concerned, they've the matches they need to play. Most have the views of individual events, while some countries like CHN takes a team view. They compete at a completely different level, but still nothing illegal is done, I don't think.

    If money for the tickets is the concerned, maybe organizer (is it BWF) can demand the countrY(ies) doing the WO pay back the audience in a prorate fashion, compensating their loss.
    Last edited by raymond; 09-28-2011 at 12:14 AM.

  7. #58
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    Have you ever watched any demo matches?
    .
    Sure. But don't get me wrong. Demo matches do show us the skills involved (in Badminton).

    But I wish to go further than that... I am not only interested in the players' skills, but also in their fighting spirit.
    .

  8. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    My goodness, this is getting worse and worse. Is someone bribed here?
    Read the lawn bowling example. New Zealand was found guilty of intentionally losing Thailand. Canada made the complaint. The 'captain' of NZ team was suspended/banned for 6 months & had to pay a fine.

    The point is not just about walkover & withdrawal but intentionally losing/throwing a match. If BWF is as tough as lawn bowling association, hahaha, Korea would not have dared to put up the weird line up during TC(singles playing doubles & vice versa). Or all the Oscar winning performances we have seen

    Bribe? Can happen of course but not in this China vs China walkover cases.

  9. #60
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    Rudy Hartono was Indonesia's top player and also regarded at that time as the greatest badminton player. As far as I know, he was not ALLOWED to play against Tang Xinfu - not that he did not wanted to. As for his interview on strategies, you'll have to search the post that should be buried somewhere in the forum.

    But he should have heard the talks on how he won the World Championships...

    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    Talking about INA and CHN teams in the 1970's.

    It was reported that Rudy Hartono was not keen/interested to face the great Tang Xianhu.

    It's just that. There wasn't any 'match-fixing' involved.


    'Match-fixing' occurs when 'pretend' matches are played against teammates; Not when matches are not played against opponents. There is a difference.


    .

  10. #61
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    1. Actually I don't know the answer nor what is needed to make a top international badminton player, much less what is needed to make a country a powerhouse in badminton. If I had this ability I wouldn't be talking here! What I think is, if the powerhouses are doing it, there must be some advantages.

    2. My thoughts, I do not have any. I don't know much about it and have not thought or lost any sleep on this issue. But when I can't think of other reasons, I think about money... As there is a saying, money is the root of all evil (but I need it, and badly)!

    I think LYB should be an intelligent person. If he stated the things as he did, he may have other reasons...


    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    No apologies needed! It helps to drive attention to the subject. I will try and answer you in 2 parts.

    1. I will not deny that Rudy Hartono or some other person may well have advocated some 'strategies' to ensure Indonesia (or whichever country) maintain a stranglehold (or at least a dominating position) in the game. I don't personally know of this for sure, but I have read other posts on other threads from respected BCers maintaining the same claim. But that does not mean that CBA necessarily 'learnt' from the others in this regard. There are plenty good brains and strategists at CBA and the relevant Ministry of Sports (or whichever Government department the CBA answers to) and it has been clear for a long time now that CBA has chosen its own unique way to ensure their dominance. I would not condone the actions of the past, as much as I would not the actions of the present. But to obtain justification for your misdeeds by quoting some else's misdeeds, is to my mind, feeble. To quote Mahatma Gandhi, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Now CBA finds itself in the enviable position of dominance of the sport. They usually have some of the top 2, 3 or even 4 seeds in almost every tournament they decide to participate in. To a rational mind, the CBA should be the organisation with the least necessity of trying to gain questionable advantage. And yet it is almost always (over the past few years) the CBA who has done this. However, as has been also spoken of in this thread, it could be some other association in the future, who gains ascendancy over everyone else. It happens to be the CBA at present and in the immediate past, and that is why they are always front and centre of these discussions, naturally!

    2. The root cause (or set of causes or issues) is what we are driving to determine. Many BCers have a pretty good idea of all or some of the root, and hopefully their contribution here will help in driving attention to the key issues. (the OG timeline & qualification guidelines are obviously one of them.) As for resources, my personal opinion is that they are not unobtainable or extravagant, and that the ends (cleaning up our game and making it fair and open to every participant) certainly justifies the means!

    What are your thoughts?

  11. #62
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    I am surprised by some comments saying the WO and match-fixing strategies of CHN team are not against the rule. Well if they are not, why do they bother to lie about it? LD does not say "I will let CJ win this final", he says "my stomach hurts". LYB does not say to Zhou Mi "don't go", he says "go and pretend to play".

  12. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    I am surprised by some comments saying the WO and match-fixing strategies of CHN team are not against the rule. Well if they are not, why do they bother to lie about it? LD does not say "I will let CJ win this final", he says "my stomach hurts". LYB does not say to Zhou Mi "don't go", he says "go and pretend to play".
    there are two types of rule.

    the type that is written in the rule book.

    and the type administered by the fans.

    if they so blatantly violate the second, they will get a huge fan revolt.

  13. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    there are two types of rule.

    the type that is written in the rule book.

    and the type administered by the fans.

    if they so blatantly violate the second, they will get a huge fan revolt.
    Yes... That is why I say shame is powerful. But for it to be effective, the fans have to voice their discontent.
    And I know Chinese people : they are very sensible about image.

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    I think players should also get more involved. Sometimes perhaps refusing to play in a final or semis against a player that benefited from fake match or WO. For ex, LCW should not have played against CL. The title then go to the cheater, but he can only take it with shame.
    Other countries association should also protest.
    This lack of reaction shows how badminton is not well organized. For ex, in the China Masters two weeks ago, all the umpires were Chinese. This is contrary to ethic and politeness. Players should have protested, and Associations as well.

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    Maybe BWF should strictly impose a penalty for those who walkover against with team mate (like China vs China player). Penalty by points and/or monetary and/or recovery period atleast 1 month.

    And/or maybe in the case of LD vs CL in Japan Open, CL must still play with the opponent that LD beat in semi-finals so that... 1.) to be fair with LCW (I guess one of the reason LCW lost because CL was able to rest well). 2.) to be fair with the fans especially those who paid to watch the tournament. 3.) team / players will think twice to walkover for whatever reason.

    I dont think there will be a "Scam Walkover" of player against other team. Unless for serious match fixing... atleast team mate vs team mate walkover will be lessen.
    Last edited by KillerQT; 09-28-2011 at 03:37 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    Yes... That is why I say shame is powerful. But for it to be effective, the fans have to voice their discontent.
    And I know Chinese people : they are very sensible about image.
    I mean "sensitive". But to think about it, "sensible" can do.

  17. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerQT View Post
    Maybe BWF should strictly impose a penalty for those who walkover against with team mate (like China vs China player). Penalty by points and/or monetary and/or recovery period atleast 1 month.

    And/or maybe in the case of LD vs CL in Japan Open, CL must still play with the opponent that LD beat in semi-finals so that... 1.) to be fair with LCW (I guess one of the reason LCW lost because CL was able to rest well). 2.) to be fair with the fans especially those who paid to watch the tournament. 3.) team / players will think twice to walkover for whatever reason.

    I dont think there will be a "Scam Walkover" of player against other team. Unless for serious match fixing... atleast team mate vs team mate walkover will be lessen.
    The problem with this solution is that players that WO pretend to be sick. It is difficult to fine them. If the fine is automatic, they will show for the match, but won't play seriously.

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