Results 69 to 85 of 392
09-28-2011, 06:14 AM #69
Now its up to BWF to set out the standard, if they want to go as low as LYB, then too bad. We may have to study the regulation in regards to BWF board members appointment and replacement.
Last edited by Yoppy; 09-28-2011 at 06:17 AM.
09-28-2011, 06:22 AM #70
I was quite surprised with how strict the Lawn Bowling Association is, they can conclude from the way the match played that NZ purposely lost to Thailand to avoid tough draw in following rounds. Then suspend the captain & fine all the players involved.
In badminton, how to deduce they purposely lose? Unless very obvious ones like purposely send the shot wide repeatedly, sending shots into net.
Another one would be like in team events like Thomas Cup where singles specialist asked to play doubles & vice versa. Or fielding 2nd/3rd stringers for all matches when the main players are not sick/injured
09-28-2011, 06:30 AM #71
* Never say die attitude
* Getting the best result possible
But you are right, may take such actions of non-CHN associations to take up the case to BWF. Imagine how messy that would be LOL
09-28-2011, 06:37 AM #72
Can they lose because they'd a panic attack, a mental problem?
09-28-2011, 06:41 AM #73
09-28-2011, 06:48 AM #74
09-28-2011, 06:57 AM #75
Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception, single, double or even triple deception. You can set up, condition your opponent's mind in order to what? deceive again... Using deception in combination of patterns over multiple rallies transcends the limitation of a single rally thinking here. Gamesmanship is in play often by any player from any country - tying shoe laces, wiping sweat, changing shuttles, not allowing opponent to change shuttles etc. In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing.
In the days of 15 points, a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy. This is a whole game or even whole match (possibly involving 3 games) thinking.
Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War". CHN badminton under his direction is going to war. Every player is a soldier, and every tournament is a battle that has a purpose setting up to the end goal of winning something big, or maximizing the win for the country. His strategy could be seen as transcending a single match, a single player, or even a single tournament. He (or CBA) has a very long-term view and a very good big picture strategist.
As far as LYB is concerned, his main goal is to help CHN win as many titles as he can, doesn't matter with which individual player(s). As long as his team complies with the regulations. I don't see anything else here, unless someone put down some serious evidence he's being bribed, or he's bribing another countries. As far as the fans goes, I'm not sure if he cares a bit (maybe he does, but of secondary concern). The fans should perhaps go after the organization that sells tickets.
So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back? I'd agree the fans probably should be compensated partly at least. Perhaps BWF can do something there, and maybe the offending countries won't mind.
Last edited by raymond; 09-28-2011 at 07:03 AM.
09-28-2011, 07:13 AM #76
Those kinds of arguments are too abstract. Of course CHN team knows what they do is against the rules (written or not) ; that is why they lie about it. They are patriot, so for them it is doing a small wrong (cheating) for a greater good (glory of country), but international badminton is a game we all play together and from the point of view of others the greater good (CHN's glory) means little, but the "small wrong" means a lot. So CHN has to understand the rules are not for her convenience and that she needs the other to play the game.
When I talk about it with my Chinese friends, they all recognize (no exception) that though they can understand LYB's logic, this kind of behavior is harmful and not nice to look at.
So the is the spirit of the rule, there definitively is a moral problem. The question for me is only how to find a workable solution.
09-28-2011, 07:16 AM #77
In China Masters, there were BC members who mentioned LD telling CJ where to run/shots to make, dunno if true or not. If true & BWF have the guts like Lawn bowling association, that can be constituted as intentionally lose.
As for repeated walkovers/withdrawals, if the player withdraw this week citing injury, then next week all fresh & well, at the very least BWF must question them why. Give them some pressure
Last edited by eaglehelang; 09-28-2011 at 07:20 AM.
09-28-2011, 10:29 AM #78
09-28-2011, 10:53 AM #79
The issue isn't about one incident or one player. It's about a pattern of conduct. You know you have a problem when people on this forum are correctly predicting W.O. in the late stages of an event based on the draw. Really the ultimate solution is to severely limit the role of the national institutions. If you want to keep the 'flags' in the game then I think the best way to go is to limit each country to 2 entries per event. Of course you'll hear some wailing from the power house countries about that but, too bad. Brazil doesn't get to field two soccer teams in the world cup or the olympics and Canada doesn't get to field two hockey teams in international competitions either.
Last edited by thunder.tw; 09-28-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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09-28-2011, 11:12 AM #80
Morals are based upon a set of perceived values that are born of generations/centuries of general perceptions of right and wrong actions. In quite some cases, conditioning could also be involved! But overall IMO, there usually is some valid reason/argument for a moral judgement to enter the frame.
Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception...
Totally valid point. But deception is not to be confused or allied with tactics calculated at altering the opponent's readiness or physical condition in what is perceived as an unfair manner. Again, perception plays an important role, and you may say this is too subjective, but it is born of a general instinct of what is right/wrong. As you have correctly pointed out, gamesmanship is distinct from sportsmanship.
In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing.
Mac the Mouth knew exactly how far he could take it, but you wouldn't catch him dead throwing or tanking matches for his Davis Cup teammates. He was a professional, and competitive to the core. And yet, who would most parents choose as role model for their children: McEnroe or Federer?
a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy
Absolutely. But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, unless you link it to gamesmanship. And again, there are many rules set out in the BWF handbook to counter gamesmanship and provide powers to the umpire to take action as deemed necessary. The umpires can use their discretion however, and there is always a little subjectivity involved in human decisions. But on the whole, its OK, IMO. Just as most of the tennis umpires allowed Mac his histrionics and hissy-fits.
Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War".
Doesn't matter. In the context of the game of badminton, are his actions condonable? Refer to Post #1. The SS and SSP and other tourneys used for obtaining ranking for OG qualification, are individual tournaments regardless of what LYB thinks. He chooses to use them as tools to further his cause, and his methods are ethically very questionable. Actually not just ethically, but if he ever gets caught out by any of his team squealing on him, he (and CBA) could be in very hot water. Of course, the other issue is that the BWF are wimps... and this makes LYB look stronger than he really should be
So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back?
The main point here is to find a way if possible, to close the many loopholes (for want of a quicker word that comes to mind) that LYB is exploiting at present. It is not a moral argument. It is a real concern. The BWF handbooks and laws/rules are not ambiguous to anyone with a decent command over the English language. You can choose either to interpret the book to the letter, or in the spirit. BWF holds custody over a game, where sportsmanship, fairness, competitive spirit, fostering of understanding and harmony through sport are the key values. NOT WAR. Regardless of what LYB or anyone else may prefer to twist it into, this is a game. And to my mind there is one national association that is not playing the game. Tragically, it is the one with the best bunch of players on earth.
09-28-2011, 06:13 PM #81Originally Posted by twobeer
A semi with CL vs. Lee Chong Wei on the upper half and LD vs. Jan O Jorgensen or Ueda on the bottom half, would not neccessarily be a BETTER thing for Lee Chong Wei's chances of clinching the JO title..
Last edited by twobeer; 09-28-2011 at 06:27 PM.
09-28-2011, 07:11 PM #82
The point is whoever gets to the finals gets there because they earned it. The problem with the match fixing that is going on isn't that it's bad for LCW. The problem is that it is bad for FANS and for the sport of badminton. This isn't about who wins the event, it's about the quality of the event and the matches in the event. Often the best three matches in the events are the two semi final matches and the final and in many cases the semi-finals are better than the final. So what's so great about having one of the semi-finals being a W.O. or a dog and pony show? And, in the worst case the quality of the final gets effected because you have one player well rested against another player who had to survive a 3 game 1 hour and 45 min marathon.
Your logic is goofy, you are focused trying to pick winners. This issue isn't about giving LCW a better chance at winning. It's about the quality of the game.
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09-28-2011, 10:09 PM #83
As i mention before in previous post, this thread is under Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating.
We should discuss about the law of badminton/rules of game as cobalt keep trying to get us in.
Which section/point in law of badminton that it breach? (http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14915)
What are possible argument that can/will be use by China team to defend their act?
Is there any other case (in other sport) that has a similarity that we can use to study?
We can make this thing big, try to get bwf to hear us (badminton lover) that we don't like this kind of
act. It already brings badminton into disrepute. I don't want that one day IOC decide that badminton will not be included in Olimpic because of this disrepute.
09-28-2011, 11:43 PM #84
09-29-2011, 03:11 PM #85
BTW, you always have the option of controlling the outcome of a match.. if you are good enough...
As a fan I looked at it this way.. LD and LCW almost always comes up against eachother in all tournaments.. and frankly I thought it was more enjoyable to watch something "different" in this JO final.. So CL vs. LCW was a great final matchup. I would not be so excited to watch a sparring match (how many times do you think LD and CL plays eachother on a day-to-day basis).. They know eachother too well, and with no coaching there will be even less "tactical" issues. Quite a boring matchup anyway for fans imop.
Your logic is gooofy.. By forcing LD to play with a minor injury would not raise the quality of the game at all.
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