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  1. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    But surely, if BWF does mind, they could restrict the number of entries per countries to 2 only, as TwoBeer suggested, for example.
    Im not sure at this stage if BWF cares about it. We may need to hear from BWF whats the problem and their opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    Is it the case that other countries don't want to do it, or that they can't do it? What's the main moral judgement here? That the audience is betrayed? Well, who puts the audience there and earn money? As far as these countries are concerned, they've the matches they need to play. Most have the views of individual events, while some countries like CHN takes a team view. They compete at a completely different level, but still nothing illegal is done, I don't think.
    Lets put aside moral judgement, in the world we live in its too complex to generalised. For LYB's mind he has stay loyal to his value, even feel proud about it. Maybe as for you its a clear cut crime. So..... you see each of us may have different standards in regards to "moral". Therefore as long as there is no clearly written regulations and strong implementation, this moral approach is just USELESS. As the OP wrote in his 1st post, they will do it again and again and again and again.

    Now its up to BWF to set out the standard, if they want to go as low as LYB, then too bad. We may have to study the regulation in regards to BWF board members appointment and replacement.
    Last edited by Yoppy; 09-28-2011 at 05:17 AM.

  2. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    The problem with this solution is that players that WO pretend to be sick. It is difficult to fine them. If the fine is automatic, they will show for the match, but won't play seriously.
    Unless the players themselves come out & say they were forced to do so, with proof(voice recording, sms message)
    I was quite surprised with how strict the Lawn Bowling Association is, they can conclude from the way the match played that NZ purposely lost to Thailand to avoid tough draw in following rounds. Then suspend the captain & fine all the players involved.

    In badminton, how to deduce they purposely lose? Unless very obvious ones like purposely send the shot wide repeatedly, sending shots into net.
    Another one would be like in team events like Thomas Cup where singles specialist asked to play doubles & vice versa. Or fielding 2nd/3rd stringers for all matches when the main players are not sick/injured

  3. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    I think players should also get more involved. Sometimes perhaps refusing to play in a final or semis against a player that benefited from fake match or WO. For ex, LCW should not have played against CL. The title then go to the cheater, but he can only take it with shame.
    Other countries association should also protest.
    This lack of reaction shows how badminton is not well organized. For ex, in the China Masters two weeks ago, all the umpires were Chinese. This is contrary to ethic and politeness. Players should have protested, and Associations as well.
    Maybe other countries association still hold high things like:
    * Respect
    * Politeness
    * Friendshipness
    * Sportmanship
    * Never say die attitude
    * Getting the best result possible

    But you are right, may take such actions of non-CHN associations to take up the case to BWF. Imagine how messy that would be LOL

  4. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglehelang View Post

    In badminton, how to deduce they purposely lose? Unless very obvious ones like purposely send the shot wide repeatedly, sending shots into net.
    How do you prove anyone is doing anything purposely even if he plays uncharacteristically poorly. We'd seen it; e.g. in WC final, you can see how Wang Xin made so many mistakes against Wang YH. Did she do this on purpose? In QF, Wang SX lost to forgot who. Did she do this on purpose? And Chen Long lost in the 1st round of the same WC. What about him?

    Can they lose because they'd a panic attack, a mental problem?

  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    The problem with this solution is that players that WO pretend to be sick. It is difficult to fine them. If the fine is automatic, they will show for the match, but won't play seriously.
    Yup thats fine, we can BOOOOOOOOOO them big time. Record the comedy drama for the generations to come. Set up an independent panel to judge if its a hollywood blockbuster or a documentary. Then I'll prepare the chopping block for the butcher to cut the chicken head.

  6. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    Yup thats fine, we can BOOOOOOOOOO them big time. Record the comedy drama for the generations to come. Set up an independent panel to judge if its a hollywood blockbuster or a documentary. Then I'll prepare the chopping block for the butcher to cut the chicken head.
    Yes, that I think is the most effective way. But people must BOO very strongly. I heard in Singapour the public was really upset and showed it. If similar reactions happens again and again, teams and players will think twice before misbehaving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoppy View Post
    Lets put aside moral judgement, in the world we live in its too complex to generalised. For LYB's mind he has stay loyal to his value, even feel proud about it. Maybe as for you its a clear cut crime. So..... you see each of us may have different standards in regards to "moral". Therefore as long as there is no clearly written regulations and strong implementation, this moral approach is just USELESS. As the OP wrote in his 1st post, they will do it again and again and again and again.

    Now its up to BWF to set out the standard, if they want to go as low as LYB, then too bad. We may have to study the regulation in regards to BWF board members appointment and replacement.
    But I never said we should put any moral judgement here. Someone here did.

    Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception, single, double or even triple deception. You can set up, condition your opponent's mind in order to what? deceive again... Using deception in combination of patterns over multiple rallies transcends the limitation of a single rally thinking here. Gamesmanship is in play often by any player from any country - tying shoe laces, wiping sweat, changing shuttles, not allowing opponent to change shuttles etc. In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing.

    In the days of 15 points, a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy. This is a whole game or even whole match (possibly involving 3 games) thinking.

    Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War". CHN badminton under his direction is going to war. Every player is a soldier, and every tournament is a battle that has a purpose setting up to the end goal of winning something big, or maximizing the win for the country. His strategy could be seen as transcending a single match, a single player, or even a single tournament. He (or CBA) has a very long-term view and a very good big picture strategist.

    As far as LYB is concerned, his main goal is to help CHN win as many titles as he can, doesn't matter with which individual player(s). As long as his team complies with the regulations. I don't see anything else here, unless someone put down some serious evidence he's being bribed, or he's bribing another countries. As far as the fans goes, I'm not sure if he cares a bit (maybe he does, but of secondary concern). The fans should perhaps go after the organization that sells tickets.

    So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back? I'd agree the fans probably should be compensated partly at least. Perhaps BWF can do something there, and maybe the offending countries won't mind.
    Last edited by raymond; 09-28-2011 at 06:03 AM.

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    Those kinds of arguments are too abstract. Of course CHN team knows what they do is against the rules (written or not) ; that is why they lie about it. They are patriot, so for them it is doing a small wrong (cheating) for a greater good (glory of country), but international badminton is a game we all play together and from the point of view of others the greater good (CHN's glory) means little, but the "small wrong" means a lot. So CHN has to understand the rules are not for her convenience and that she needs the other to play the game.
    When I talk about it with my Chinese friends, they all recognize (no exception) that though they can understand LYB's logic, this kind of behavior is harmful and not nice to look at.
    So the is the spirit of the rule, there definitively is a moral problem. The question for me is only how to find a workable solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    How do you prove anyone is doing anything purposely even if he plays uncharacteristically poorly. We'd seen it; e.g. in WC final, you can see how Wang Xin made so many mistakes against Wang YH. Did she do this on purpose? In QF, Wang SX lost to forgot who. Did she do this on purpose? And Chen Long lost in the 1st round of the same WC. What about him?

    Can they lose because they'd a panic attack, a mental problem?
    Well, the Lawn Bowling Association actually conclude so & say the New Zealand captain purposely miss so Thailand can win. It's up to the association
    In China Masters, there were BC members who mentioned LD telling CJ where to run/shots to make, dunno if true or not. If true & BWF have the guts like Lawn bowling association, that can be constituted as intentionally lose.

    As for repeated walkovers/withdrawals, if the player withdraw this week citing injury, then next week all fresh & well, at the very least BWF must question them why. Give them some pressure
    Last edited by eaglehelang; 09-28-2011 at 06:20 AM.

  10. #78
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    speechless whimps.....

  11. #79
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    The issue isn't about one incident or one player. It's about a pattern of conduct. You know you have a problem when people on this forum are correctly predicting W.O. in the late stages of an event based on the draw. Really the ultimate solution is to severely limit the role of the national institutions. If you want to keep the 'flags' in the game then I think the best way to go is to limit each country to 2 entries per event. Of course you'll hear some wailing from the power house countries about that but, too bad. Brazil doesn't get to field two soccer teams in the world cup or the olympics and Canada doesn't get to field two hockey teams in international competitions either.
    Last edited by thunder.tw; 09-28-2011 at 09:56 AM.

  12. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    But I never said we should put any moral judgement here. Someone here did.

    Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception, single, double or even triple deception. You can set up, condition your opponent's mind in order to what? deceive again... Using deception in combination of patterns over multiple rallies transcends the limitation of a single rally thinking here. Gamesmanship is in play often by any player from any country - tying shoe laces, wiping sweat, changing shuttles, not allowing opponent to change shuttles etc. In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing.

    In the days of 15 points, a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy. This is a whole game or even whole match (possibly involving 3 games) thinking.

    Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War". CHN badminton under his direction is going to war. Every player is a soldier, and every tournament is a battle that has a purpose setting up to the end goal of winning something big, or maximizing the win for the country. His strategy could be seen as transcending a single match, a single player, or even a single tournament. He (or CBA) has a very long-term view and a very good big picture strategist.

    As far as LYB is concerned, his main goal is to help CHN win as many titles as he can, doesn't matter with which individual player(s). As long as his team complies with the regulations. I don't see anything else here, unless someone put down some serious evidence he's being bribed, or he's bribing another countries. As far as the fans goes, I'm not sure if he cares a bit (maybe he does, but of secondary concern). The fans should perhaps go after the organization that sells tickets.

    So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back? I'd agree the fans probably should be compensated partly at least. Perhaps BWF can do something there, and maybe the offending countries won't mind.
    But I never said we should put any moral judgement here. Someone here did.
    Morals are based upon a set of perceived values that are born of generations/centuries of general perceptions of right and wrong actions. In quite some cases, conditioning could also be involved! But overall IMO, there usually is some valid reason/argument for a moral judgement to enter the frame.

    Within a game, a player is allowed (even appreciated) to use deception...
    Totally valid point. But deception is not to be confused or allied with tactics calculated at altering the opponent's readiness or physical condition in what is perceived as an unfair manner. Again, perception plays an important role, and you may say this is too subjective, but it is born of a general instinct of what is right/wrong. As you have correctly pointed out, gamesmanship is distinct from sportsmanship.

    In the world of tennis, John McEnroe routinely stalled the game, arguing with line judges, umpires, throwing rackets etc. Is there an ethical issue here? Apparently, the fans enjoyed the drama much. The Tennis association didn't ban him from playing.
    Mac the Mouth knew exactly how far he could take it, but you wouldn't catch him dead throwing or tanking matches for his Davis Cup teammates. He was a professional, and competitive to the core. And yet, who would most parents choose as role model for their children: McEnroe or Federer?

    a strategy of wearing out your opponent is a valid strategy
    Absolutely. But this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, unless you link it to gamesmanship. And again, there are many rules set out in the BWF handbook to counter gamesmanship and provide powers to the umpire to take action as deemed necessary. The umpires can use their discretion however, and there is always a little subjectivity involved in human decisions. But on the whole, its OK, IMO. Just as most of the tennis umpires allowed Mac his histrionics and hissy-fits.

    Maybe LYB is a great student/disciple of Sun Tsu "Art of War".
    Doesn't matter. In the context of the game of badminton, are his actions condonable? Refer to Post #1. The SS and SSP and other tourneys used for obtaining ranking for OG qualification, are individual tournaments regardless of what LYB thinks. He chooses to use them as tools to further his cause, and his methods are ethically very questionable. Actually not just ethically, but if he ever gets caught out by any of his team squealing on him, he (and CBA) could be in very hot water. Of course, the other issue is that the BWF are wimps... and this makes LYB look stronger than he really should be

    So, what is the main point here? Is this a moral argument? Or is it a value argument for the fan to get their money back?
    The main point here is to find a way if possible, to close the many loopholes (for want of a quicker word that comes to mind) that LYB is exploiting at present. It is not a moral argument. It is a real concern. The BWF handbooks and laws/rules are not ambiguous to anyone with a decent command over the English language. You can choose either to interpret the book to the letter, or in the spirit. BWF holds custody over a game, where sportsmanship, fairness, competitive spirit, fostering of understanding and harmony through sport are the key values. NOT WAR. Regardless of what LYB or anyone else may prefer to twist it into, this is a game. And to my mind there is one national association that is not playing the game. Tragically, it is the one with the best bunch of players on earth.

  13. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer
    7Even with 4 entries match fixing could be advantageous if these four players advance and meet in the draw.
    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    True. Just as it happened last week at the 2011 Japan Open SS;
    .
    But one aspect I hink that people tend to forget when discussing these matches/issues is that it is also a DISADVANTAGE for the Chineese players when drawn against eachother! Even if they can "choose" what player to go trough to their next round this means they will also HAVE to ELIMINATE one player and only get one chance instead of two in the next round, putting all eggs in one basket so to say.. It would in most cases probably be more beneficial for them to NOT be drawn against eachother so they can eliminate the oppostion on the other half of the draw instead...

    A semi with CL vs. Lee Chong Wei on the upper half and LD vs. Jan O Jorgensen or Ueda on the bottom half, would not neccessarily be a BETTER thing for Lee Chong Wei's chances of clinching the JO title..
    Last edited by twobeer; 09-28-2011 at 05:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    But one aspect I hink that people tend to forget when discussing these matches/issues is that it is also a DISADVANTAGE for the Chineese players when drawn against eachother!
    It's not a disadvantage at all. The logic behind this is silly. Having the option of determining the outcome of a match is a huge advantage. You are focused on whether the outcome of the draw is favorable to other players (in your example LCW), who cares that's not the point.

    The point is whoever gets to the finals gets there because they earned it. The problem with the match fixing that is going on isn't that it's bad for LCW. The problem is that it is bad for FANS and for the sport of badminton. This isn't about who wins the event, it's about the quality of the event and the matches in the event. Often the best three matches in the events are the two semi final matches and the final and in many cases the semi-finals are better than the final. So what's so great about having one of the semi-finals being a W.O. or a dog and pony show? And, in the worst case the quality of the final gets effected because you have one player well rested against another player who had to survive a 3 game 1 hour and 45 min marathon.

    Your logic is goofy, you are focused trying to pick winners. This issue isn't about giving LCW a better chance at winning. It's about the quality of the game.

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    As i mention before in previous post, this thread is under Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating.
    We should discuss about the law of badminton/rules of game as cobalt keep trying to get us in.
    Which section/point in law of badminton that it breach? (http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14915)
    What are possible argument that can/will be use by China team to defend their act?
    Is there any other case (in other sport) that has a similarity that we can use to study?

    We can make this thing big, try to get bwf to hear us (badminton lover) that we don't like this kind of
    act. It already brings badminton into disrepute. I don't want that one day IOC decide that badminton will not be included in Olimpic because of this disrepute.

  16. #84
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    The issue isn't about one incident or one player. It's about a pattern of conduct. You know you have a problem when people on this forum are correctly predicting W.O. in the late stages of an event based on the draw. Really the ultimate solution is to severely limit the role of the national institutions. If you want to keep the 'flags' in the game then I think the best way to go is to limit each country to 2 entries per event. Of course you'll hear some wailing from the power house countries about that but, too bad. Brazil doesn't get to field two soccer teams in the world cup or the olympics and Canada doesn't get to field two hockey teams in international competitions either.
    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    It's not a disadvantage at all. The logic behind this is silly. Having the option of determining the outcome of a match is a huge advantage. You are focused on whether the outcome of the draw is favorable to other players (in your example LCW), who cares that's not the point.

    The point is whoever gets to the finals gets there because they earned it. The problem with the match fixing that is going on isn't that it's bad for LCW. The problem is that it is bad for FANS and for the sport of badminton. This isn't about who wins the event, it's about the quality of the event and the matches in the event. Often the best three matches in the events are the two semi final matches and the final and in many cases the semi-finals are better than the final. So what's so great about having one of the semi-finals being a W.O. or a dog and pony show? And, in the worst case the quality of the final gets effected because you have one player well rested against another player who had to survive a 3 game 1 hour and 45 min marathon.

    Your logic is goofy, you are focused trying to pick winners. This issue isn't about giving LCW a better chance at winning. It's about the quality of the game.
    Some excellent points made by thunder.tw here!! He has cut much to the core of the matter. I'd like to add: its also about the reputation of the game in the eyes of the rest of the world. If BWF does not take some very hard decisions soon, it will make badminton the laughing stock of professionally-run games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    It's not a disadvantage at all. The logic behind this is silly. Having the option of determining the outcome of a match is a huge advantage. You are focused on whether the outcome of the draw is favorable to other players (in your example LCW), who cares that's not the point.
    No, It is you who are being silly, if you disregard the dissadvantage to have to play a teammate who reads eachothers games close to 100% and to exclude the possibility of getting two players trough to the next round. I would say currently LD,CL, and CJ are better than ALL players (excluding LCW) that was placed in the top-half in JO.. So you are just being silly if you don't regard that draw as a dissadvantage, seen from a Chineese perspective..

    BTW, you always have the option of controlling the outcome of a match.. if you are good enough...

    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    The point is whoever gets to the finals gets there because they earned it. The problem with the match fixing that is going on isn't that it's bad for LCW. The problem is that it is bad for FANS and for the sport of badminton. This isn't about who wins the event, it's about the quality of the event and the matches in the event. Often the best three matches in the events are the two semi final matches and the final and in many cases the semi-finals are better than the final. So what's so great about having one of the semi-finals being a W.O. or a dog and pony show? And, in the worst case the quality of the final gets effected because you have one player well rested against another player who had to survive a 3 game 1 hour and 45 min marathon.

    Your logic is goofy, you are focused trying to pick winners. This issue isn't about giving LCW a better chance at winning. It's about the quality of the game.
    I agree that WOs are not what we fans want... But I think you are exhaggerating how much the "fans" really looks forward to a team "internal" semi anyway... To me it seems more like the ones that are "pissed" that LCW didn't win wine about it and focuses on the WO rather than the fact that a) the singles final was great badminton b) CL spent more time on court in JO than LCW despite the WO! c) LCW was not in his greatest form.

    As a fan I looked at it this way.. LD and LCW almost always comes up against eachother in all tournaments.. and frankly I thought it was more enjoyable to watch something "different" in this JO final.. So CL vs. LCW was a great final matchup. I would not be so excited to watch a sparring match (how many times do you think LD and CL plays eachother on a day-to-day basis).. They know eachother too well, and with no coaching there will be even less "tactical" issues. Quite a boring matchup anyway for fans imop.

    Your logic is gooofy.. By forcing LD to play with a minor injury would not raise the quality of the game at all.

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