The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

**raymond** · 10-02-2011, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by nokh88

I watched but there are so many that no one knows which is genuine and which is not.
[/SIZE]

Does it really matter? I enjoy them all the same. When we watch a movie, we know it's fake. Yet everyone enjoys it, at least once in a while. We won't say to ourselves, "hey, no fun, it's not reall".

Don't forget all these tournaments are first and foremost competitive events, and other organizations like BWF double them up as an entertainment for fans. From the participating countries standpoint, it's of this order of importance. It has always been like this long before they televise those tournaments, or selling tickets to 10s of thousands , encouraged by the convenience of today's transportation.

I can certainly understand how a paying fan might feel upset. But that'd be a systemic problem - how could organization BWF come up with a system that satisfy the athletes and the fans alike?

**raymond** · 10-02-2011, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by eaglehelang

BWF should at least investigate by - 1) insisting an independent doctor/s check on the injury. If toe injury, do a scan, have 2 to 3 different doctors check. If back injury,scan. If fever, take temperature. If all the doctors said, fine, no injury what, ehem...... interrogote : Why you say injured when no muscle tear,etc, this is not 1st time. You say pain, why only pain why you play your team mate? What stunt you trying to pull here? Ok, that was a bit too police detective drama type

Next time another walkover, do it all over again, make it harder for any Oscar winning displays.
If it was the Lawn Bowling Association, they would have meted out fines long ago, and questioning the player, the opponent, coaches.(refer previous pages involving decision made on intentionally losing, though they played)

I'm curious, what'd have happened if a player simply withdraws, without giving any medical reason? What's the penalty? I know I can look up the "Code of Conduct" book someone posts sometime ago, but I'm just too lazy. After all, it's not my job to police anyone. Just trying to have a casual conversation here.

**raymond** · 10-02-2011, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by cobalt

However, have you noticed that no other country has attempted historically, to "institutionalize" such behaviour that way China seems intent on doing?

Not sure if/how you can prove this either. CHN has a lot of good players getting into major tournaments. As such, it's more often to see CHN player against his team-mate. If the same frequency could happen in any other countries, then maybe we can talk about patterns there.

In the case of JO, e.g., you notice that 2 JPN players ran into each other. Naturally, one would lose. Would you complain that the match is not real, as the losing side lost in straight games with only 13-14 points each?

**raymond** · 10-02-2011, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Yoppy

Yes I admit that. It will just change the modus operandi from WO to injury, but at least they will have to perform the drama. And being CHN player you will be required to be a good actor and actress on top of being good badminton players. I will enjoy that comedy, wouldn't you?

Really, would that be a way to solve the "dilemma" for you? After much talking, it's actually about comedy/entertainment value?

**twobeer** · 10-02-2011, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Yoppy

Yes I admit that. It will just change the modus operandi from WO to injury, but at least they will have to perform the drama. And being CHN player you will be required to be a good actor and actress on top of being good badminton players. I will enjoy that comedy, wouldn't you?

Nope.. I am a badminton fan, not an acting fan, And I like good badminton players regardless if they are from China, Indonesia, Malaysia or Japan :-).. I think people get to emotionally biased because they do not like the fact that their favourite local heroes are not as good as the top chineese athletes, and then dodges the "real" issue by blaming the "WOs" etc.. focusing on the symptom, rather than the problem.. The sympton is lots of China vs. China matchups because the other nations are too weak, that all of them put togheter still are no match for China. You could do a team match for China vs. the rest of the world put together today.. and team China would still be the favourites to win!! That my friend is probably the core issue why indo/mas fans are pissed, much more than a few WOs, injury or no injury aside.

**twobeer** · 10-02-2011, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

Not sure if/how you can prove this either. CHN has a lot of good players getting into major tournaments. As such, it's more often to see CHN player against his team-mate. If the same frequency could happen in any other countries, then maybe we can talk about patterns there.

In the case of JO, e.g., you notice that 2 JPN players ran into each other. Naturally, one would lose. Would you complain that the match is not real, as the losing side lost in straight games with only 13-14 points each?

To add to that it is also hard to draw to many conclusions based on "strange" team-mate vs. team-mate matches.. Playing without coaching and playing someone who knows your game and reads you like a book after countless of hours on court together is quite a different beast..

**Yoppy** · 10-02-2011, 05:35 PM

Jeeeez.....why does it have to go around the circle again??? Posters please do the home work before shooting blanks

***cobalt*** · 10-02-2011, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

Not sure if/how you can prove this either. CHN has a lot of good players getting into major tournaments. As such, it's more often to see CHN player against his team-mate. If the same frequency could happen in any other countries, then maybe we can talk about patterns there.

In the case of JO, e.g., you notice that 2 JPN players ran into each other. Naturally, one would lose. Would you complain that the match is not real, as the losing side lost in straight games with only 13-14 points each?

I think, (with due respect) there is a bit of an obtuse viewpoint happening here. The information is out there for anyone/everyone to access, if they wish to. Why is the onus on me to "prove?" Much as the onus need not necessarily be on LYB to "prove" that he is not manipulating, and that the onus needs to be on BWF to "prove" that either a walkover is clean or not, and thereby provide a clean chit.

There is a frequency of meet-ups between players of the same country, not just China. Most matches (with extremely rare exceptions) are played. Quite a few go to 3 games. The ones that don't go to 3 games, are generally those where the levels of skills are clearly different, or where one of them just has a bad day. Once again, the distinction is that these are not Walkovers or Withdrawals. The pattern is being set by one country only. You can visit www.tournamentsoftware.com anytime you like and choose any past tournament to inspect the results, and draw your own conclusions.

**nokh88** · 10-02-2011, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Yoppy

Jeeeez.....why does it have to go around the circle again??? Posters please do the home work before shooting blanks

Beats me. Some were not present when earlier posts were posted and they didn't read from page one. Most arguments are repetitions. That's why I suggested to have a like and dislike button or poll to get a consensus. Full stop.

**twobeer** · 10-02-2011, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by cobalt

I think, (with due respect) there is a bit of an obtuse viewpoint happening here. The information is out there for anyone/everyone to access, if they wish to. Why is the onus on me to "prove?" Much as the onus need not necessarily be on LYB to "prove" that he is not manipulating, and that the onus needs to be on BWF to "prove" that either a walkover is clean or not, and thereby provide a clean chit.

There is a frequency of meet-ups between players of the same country, not just China. Most matches (with extremely rare exceptions) are played. Quite a few go to 3 games. The ones that don't go to 3 games, are generally those where the levels of skills are clearly different, or where one of them just has a bad day. Once again, the distinction is that these are not Walkovers or Withdrawals. The pattern is being set by one country only. You can visit www.tournamentsoftware.com anytime you like and choose any past tournament to inspect the results, and draw your own conclusions.

http://literallyeverything.blogspot....not-witch.html

**twobeer** · 10-02-2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by cobalt

I think, (with due respect) There is a frequency of meet-ups between players of the same country, not just China. Most matches (with extremely rare exceptions) are played. Quite a few go to 3 games. The ones that don't go to 3 games, are generally those where the levels of skills are clearly different, or where one of them just has a bad day. Once again, the distinction is that these are not Walkovers or Withdrawals. The pattern is being set by one country only. You can visit www.tournamentsoftware.com anytime you like and choose any past tournament to inspect the results, and draw your own conclusions.

Sat 10/1/2011 - Taufik HIDAYAT - Tommy SUGIARTO : 10-21 15-21
Thu 11/12/2009 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-13 21-6
Thu 1/17/2008 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-18 21-16

***cobalt*** · 10-02-2011, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

I'm curious, what'd have happened if a player simply withdraws, without giving any medical reason? What's the penalty? I know I can look up the "Code of Conduct" book someone posts sometime ago, but I'm just too lazy. After all, it's not my job to police anyone. Just trying to have a casual conversation here.

Is this what you were interested in?

For top 10 seeds who are committed to SS and SSP events: $5000 over and above the statutory penalties applicable.
http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=35827

Other withdrawals, breaches of code of conduct, team withdrawals etc: penalties ranging from $250 to $1000
http://www.bwfbadminton.org/file_download.aspx?id=35810

Hope this helps

***cobalt*** · 10-02-2011, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by twobeer

Sat 10/1/2011 - Taufik HIDAYAT - Tommy SUGIARTO : 10-21 15-21
Thu 11/12/2009 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-13 21-6
Thu 1/17/2008 - Simon SANTOSO - Taufik HIDAYAT : 21-18 21-16

Surely you can do better?
Walkovers and Withrawals, remember???

***cobalt*** · 10-02-2011, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by raymond

....snip...

I can certainly understand how a paying fan might feel upset. But that'd be a systemic problem - how could organization BWF come up with a system that satisfy the athletes and the fans alike?

...exactly what we were hoping to discuss on this thread...

**Yoppy** · 10-03-2011, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by raymond

Really, would that be a way to solve the "dilemma" for you? After much talking, it's actually about comedy/entertainment value?

You still dont get it do you? Fine, if you want to see BWF doing nothing about it.

Let me ask, which is harder for LYB inc to face, no rule whatsoever or at least something that they have to get away around everytime??

And then we can built up some more cases and evidence on the court regarding the match fixing, at some stage there will be some very bad actors and actresses. It will also put more moral/mental pressure on the players (who's performing the match fixing) on the court, and at some stage hopefully someone broke down and say "enough is enough".

***cobalt*** · 10-03-2011, 12:29 AM

Many people here have been questioning the validity of the Walkover syndrome that afflicts CBA players. The argument is that it is bound to happen sooner or later, and that players other countries have also resorted to this "tactic." In light of which, I feel its a good idea to cross-reference a relevant thread here:

http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...yer-since-2006

The numbers tell a tale.

**Yoppy** · 10-03-2011, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by twobeer

Nope.. I am a badminton fan, not an acting fan, And I like good badminton players regardless if they are from China, Indonesia, Malaysia or Japan :-).. I think people get to emotionally biased because they do not like the fact that their favourite local heroes are not as good as the top chineese athletes, and then dodges the "real" issue by blaming the "WOs" etc.. focusing on the symptom, rather than the problem.. The sympton is lots of China vs. China matchups because the other nations are too weak, that all of them put togheter still are no match for China. You could do a team match for China vs. the rest of the world put together today.. and team China would still be the favourites to win!! That my friend is probably the core issue why indo/mas fans are pissed, much more than a few WOs, injury or no injury aside.

Lets cut that crap twobeer. All along I wrote nothing subjectively about you or anyone else that in defence of CHN WO tactic. If you want to go that road Im up for it mate, I'll leave that to you to decide. But at the moment let me say that your accusation is baseless and not true (And I dont have to defend or prove myself on that). This can happen to any country and I will use the same words.