The Walkover & Withdrawal issue - rights and wrongs

[twobeer]

I cannot agree with your arguments, Twobeer. I don't think the win/lost of LCW has something to do with the protest we have here. There have been too much tricks played by CHN team lately ; like someone said above, it is now a pattern which we can forecast.
Another point is matches between fellows from the same country are not necessarily a bore. The final in the 08OLY between ZN and XXF was a thriller, for example. (One of the best match I have seen).
One of the thing that infuriates many, or at least myself, is that if LD (to take him) does not want to play all the way to the final, why does he come to the tourney? He should stay at home and give room to players he beat in the first rounds.

I am not sure we are in dissagreement at all?

I do not think it is "OK" for LYB or team china to decide the winner of chn vs. chn. matches. I just think people are making a hen out of a feather.. And the hot emotions makes me think it has more to do with the loss of LCW in Japan, than the "argumented" view that they got "robbed" of the "LD vs. CL" match...

Btw. the match LD vs. Chen Jin two week ago in china was a great match too.

We could speculate (based on previous WOs) that it was a tactic descision to let CL get the opportunity to meet LCW in the JO finals. But frankly it is still speculation.. None of us can say for sure, that LD did not have a toe problem, and that the WO was tactical rather than medical. It is just speculation from our part, based on a few WOs before.

What I am saying as a fan, is that I personally found it much more enjoyable to sit down and watch the tight CL vs. LCW in this JO finals. than just yet another (yawn) meetup SS-final between LD and LCW, with both players obvious being not in their best shape.

[cobalt]

....snip...

LYB is given the political authority to continue doing WO, match fixing, etc. so this status quo will not change. From a fan that actually pays to see an event hoping for a great game but getting a WO instead, how would you feel if you that fan, especially if that fan has to take a flight from another country, pay hotel accommodation and take vacation time to take in that event? Just a thought.

Errrr, you may be in the mood to have "a private word" with LYB??

[V1lau]

How do you guys know that it is not Lin Dan asking LYB for a walk-over? I think at the moment LD has as much power as LYB when it comes to decision making with regards to Men's Singles. In my opinion LD has nothing to gain and everything to lose when playing LCW and he rather not let LCW gain more familiarity with his game. Speculation is just speculation until you can prove it and with out that proof you can not act on anything, because you can't be certain what is the root of the problem.

[Yoppy]

How do you guys know that it is not Lin Dan asking LYB for a walk-over? I think at the moment LD has as much power as LYB when it comes to decision making with regards to Men's Singles. In my opinion LD has nothing to gain and everything to lose when playing LCW and he rather not let LCW gain more familiarity with his game. Speculation is just speculation until you can prove it and with out that proof you can not act on anything, because you can't be certain what is the root of the problem.

Either way LYB is the boss, even if LD is the guilty party LYB could have prevented it from happening. Just recently Carlos Tevez refused to play for Man City, and what have Roberto Mancini reacted?

[viver]

How do you guys know that it is not Lin Dan asking LYB for a walk-over? I think at the moment LD has as much power as LYB when it comes to decision making with regards to Men's Singles. In my opinion LD has nothing to gain and everything to lose when playing LCW and he rather not let LCW gain more familiarity with his game. Speculation is just speculation until you can prove it and with out that proof you can not act on anything, because you can't be certain what is the root of the problem.

I agree that are just speculations and no real proof. If there were evidence I would assume that all guilty parties be punished according to the rules. I think LYB would like to see improvements in CL confidence and match experience.

Either way LYB is the boss, even if LD is the guilty party LYB could have prevented it from happening. Just recently Carlos Tevez refused to play for Man City, and what have Roberto Mancini reacted?

That's why Aguero is there.

[nokh88]

Aguero is injured. Balotelli is as good.

[V1lau]

Either way LYB is the boss, even if LD is the guilty party LYB could have prevented it from happening. Just recently Carlos Tevez refused to play for Man City, and what have Roberto Mancini reacted?

I'm offended you would compare Lin Dan to Carlos Tevez! Lin Dan is at least analogous to a Messi or C.Ronaldo. And I believe if either one of those 2 players asked for a medically approved day off because of turf toe, they would be giving that privilege.

I'm just saying until we know the facts, how are we to come up with the solution? If Chen Long had lost to LCW would we even have this thread?

[V1lau]

Aguero is injured. Balotelli is as good.

Come on now, if Lin Dan was like Balotelli he would be throwing his racket at his opponent and doing 360 jump smashes that would hit the ref and line judges!

[nokh88]

I am really referring to football only.

[Yoppy]

I'm offended you would compare Lin Dan to Carlos Tevez! Lin Dan is at least analogous to a Messi or C.Ronaldo. And I believe if either one of those 2 players asked for a medically approved day off because of turf toe, they would be giving that privilege.

And how do you proof they will be given a previlege if asked for a medically approved day off because of turf toe?? Messi wont play if he's not fit, full stop. Unlike LD of course. There is also difference between team set up (like in soccer) and individual game like badminton. As far as Im concern LD is a team just like a football club. And hence LD choosing not to play is like a whole team of Barcelona pulling out of Champions League.

I'm just saying until we know the facts, how are we to come up with the solution?

Facts? Flip through earlier pages and you will find article/interview of LYB admiting the facts. And BTW under normal crime situation, there will be no criminal putting his/her hand up saying "hello its me who did it". Therefore getting to knw the facts can be hard thing to do without investigation. Now in LYB case, do we have the criminal putting his hand up? YES. Do we have the police to arrest him? NO. Im confused.

If Chen Long had lost to LCW would we even have this thread?

YES, you can find more threads about it, where LCW or non-CHN player ended up winning the tournament which contain some CHN match fixing strategy. Its not about LCW losing to anyone, its about CHN team fault play.

[OneToughBirdie]

Errrr, you may be in the mood to have "a private word" with LYB??

Maybe my post is not clear...what I implied is that even though Li Ling Wei and CHN fans oppose match fixing, LYB still continues to do so, that shows LYB is the boss in control of CHN badminton. When I said 'from a fan that actually pays to see an event hoping for a great game but getting a WO instead, how would you feel if you that fan..." my question is not to LYB but to BCers who support match fixing and WOI have made posts long before you join BC on the topic of match fixing and my position is still the same. As to discuss with Boss LYB, LYB could not care less who I am when he gave a hoot care to BWF and everyone else

[V1lau]

Messi wont play if he's not fit, full stop. Unlike LD of course.

How do you know this is true? How do you know Lin Dan and his doctor are lying and this is all a conspiracy to let Chen Long beat LCW? My original point is that if you can't show if it Lin Dan or LYB who instigated the walk-over, your just assuming it has the be LYB, but maybe it is Lin Dan? The 2 cases in my opinion will have different consequences. Let say LYB admits and has a recording of himself telling Lin Dan to throw the match then we should sanction LYB, and pressure China to Fire him because he cheated. If Lin Dan admits he didn't want to play and gave a walk-over, i guess you could fine him but is he breaking any rules, cheated? Can we force him to play even if he doesn't want to?

Facts? Flip through earlier pages and you will find article/interview of LYB admiting the facts. And BTW under normal crime situation, there will be no criminal putting his/her hand up saying "hello its me who did it". Therefore getting to knw the facts can be hard thing to do without investigation. Now in LYB case, do we have the criminal putting his hand up? YES. Do we have the police to arrest him? NO. Im confused.

If he has admitted this on record, then why hasn't the BWF done anything? Like some else has said China is just the symptom, the BWF is the problem?

[Chayady]

You are right, I was lazy expressing my self.. What I meant was that there are no enforcable rule, and there really is no way to objectively measure "best effort".. Of course BWF and other organisations put these kind of conduct rules int so they can ban players if they can PROOVE there is thrown game etc.. But there is of course no way of enforing a law about "maximum" effort.. How can you proove that Gade made his best effort against LCW?, and that LCW really played his maximum against CL?.. Maybe he was holding back a little because of his injury? Then it would be "match fixing" as he didn't give it the 100% maximum posible, and risk to prolong the injury?Let me ask you this.. if JO this year was a OG final.. Do you still think LCW would have lost the game to CL??

From your comments, i am curious about your age. Are an adult or a primary student?In any law (not only sports law), all the rule are enforcable. If this kind of thing still confuse you, i think you should go back to school and listen carefully to your teacher. There is a process called investigation. If bwf commite want to investigate, i am sure that they can prove it quite easy. I.e. Tapping on all the conversation by china team. Take this case as example how investigation can be done: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...8.01.2011_.pdf

[Yoppy]

How do you know this is true? How do you know Lin Dan and his doctor are lying and this is all a conspiracy to let Chen Long beat LCW? My original point is that if you can't show if it Lin Dan or LYB who instigated the walk-over, your just assuming it has the be LYB, but maybe it is Lin Dan?

Well you should read more threads on BC to find the answer. Many BCers have pointed out why that is the case. You maybe right, maybe LD is behind all this, but that does not mean LYB is off the hook. If you dont agree with me, I have no problem with that.

The 2 cases in my opinion will have different consequences. Let say LYB admits and has a recording of himself telling Lin Dan to throw the match then we should sanction LYB, and pressure China to Fire him because he cheated. If Lin Dan admits he didn't want to play and gave a walk-over, i guess you could fine him but is he breaking any rules, cheated? Can we force him to play even if he doesn't want to?

Breaking the rules? Yes of course it is, its still call match fixing. Does it really matter whether its LD or LYB? If LD is so lazy that night, he should have come to the court and fake the match for all of us to see. Not hiding behind the wall to cover his ego. And what is the reason for all his WO was againts CHN team mates or a potential meeting with his CHN team mate? Oh yes....thats right....... it was just a coencidence that he got his stomach ache everytime he's up againts CHN team mate.

But then again, if you dont agree with me, I have no problem with that.

If he has admitted this on record, then why hasn't the BWF done anything? Like some else has said China is just the symptom, the BWF is the problem?

Finally....you remember something that I wrote (even if you dont know it was me)

But that does not mean CHN and LYB in particular is innocence. As Cobalt wrote, if BWF sitting doing nothing, it will continue on and on and on.

[twobeer]

From your comments, i am curious about your age. Are an adult or a primary student?In any law (not only sports law), all the rule are enforcable. If this kind of thing still confuse you, i think you should go back to school and listen carefully to your teacher. There is a process called investigation. If bwf commite want to investigate, i am sure that they can prove it quite easy. I.e. Tapping on all the conversation by china team. Take this case as example how investigation can be done: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...8.01.2011_.pdf

I think your insulting tone, is pretty immature, and does not help your argument!

[Chayady]

I am sorry if i am insulting you. I just assuming your age base on curiosity and your comments And if you feel my comment insulting, you should also check on your 'tone and comments'.And probably you want to consider to appologize about that, just to show that you are mature.

[twobeer]

btw there are more recent examples of bans for match fixing.. Savic, a low ranked tennis pro was just sentenced to a lifetime ban from pro tennis due to 3 accounts of match-fixing (most likely with betting etc. for economical gain).

http://www.brecorder.com/market-data...ate=2011-10-02

But these situations are mostly when players/teams get economical gains from throwing matches (that are played), Not by conceding WOs that would provide no vaule for monetary bets etc. If Taufik feels more like shopping than playing and looses to Tien Chen Chou in the first round in JO, I think it is hard to proove that it was "match fixing".. But I also think it is hard to think that he played at his maximum... So should Taufik be banned, after not playing his maximum this JO?? That is something you should ask yourself.

If you can proove that someone is taking money or gets bonus for throwings a game. Or maybe proove that someone pays someoneelse to loose. The rules alows for actions and bans. But my point is that you cannot really "proove" "maximum effort" if there are no hard evidence of money or communication etc. about the match. And of course WO is generelly not considered match-fixing.