User Tag List

Page 23 of 24 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 LastLast
Results 375 to 391 of 392
  1. #375
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,886
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    I'm sorry, but you're terribly misled in life, if you think everything is black and white.
    Badminton or any sport in reality is really a business to everyone. There are going to be grey areas. This happens to be one of them.
    It is in black and white, literally, the text in the rules is black and the backing is white. No grey areas within the context of this example (olympics2012). Believe me badminton is not run like a business but that whole argument lies in another thread called BWF get with the program. I think you may be missing one fact which led you to believe i am misled, this fact being if BWF want to scrap these rules(in the code of conduct), then that is fine by me. They can then legally allow all the walkovers etc they want if they think it will help the sport and grow it as a business(exactly like team orders in formula1, that was scrapped caused havoc then reinstated). However this ain't the case and i can guarantee you this incident will discourage prospective sponsors.

    P.S you still never answered why there is no problem with match fixing as I highlighted in post #367.
    Last edited by craigandy; 08-09-2012 at 03:12 PM.

  2. #376
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    594
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    It is in black and white, literally, the text in the rules is black and the backing is white. No grey areas within the context of this example (olympics2012). Believe me badminton is not run like a business but that whole argument lies in another thread called BWF get with the program. I think you may be missing one fact which led you to believe i am misled, this fact being if BWF want to scrap these rules(in the code of conduct), then that is fine by me. They can then legally allow all the walkovers etc they want if they think it will help the sport and grow it as a business(exactly like team orders in formula1, that was scrapped caused havoc then reinstated). However this ain't the case and i can guarantee you this incident will discourage prospective sponsors.

    P.S you still never answered why there is no problem with match fixing as I highlighted in post #367.
    Because i don't see a problem. Match fixing has been a part of pretty much every competitive sport i can think of. You don't see outrage or anything in those sports, in fact its very much adorn to.

    No. Just no. Rules are never black and white, theres always room for manipulation, i call that taking the game to it's limits. Nothing wrong in that, in competition, every bit of advantage counts. To say it's bad sportsmanship to take advantage is BS. That's called being overly generous.

    I happen to have worked for a company that sponsored the last two Canadian Opens, i can guarantee you that the image of the sport had absolutely no bearing on whether we were to sponsor or not.

    However for a bigger tournament, the reason why badminton gets so little sponsorship money is not because of scandals or lack there of, but rather because: THERE IS NO MONEY IN THIS SPORT. The majority of the fans of the sport do not live in first world countries or do they possess as much money as say North America, Australia etc. Most of the fans are from Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, etc and of course China. China is a different market though, you're either filthy rich or dirty poor. So if you were a sponsor: would you rather invest your resources into a sport like basketball or badminton?

    Let me break it down for you:
    Basketball is watched around the globe: in poor countries and rich countries.
    Badminton is watched predominantly in Asia, but not so prominent in wealthier nations.

    So where would you put your money?

    Don't believe me? Look at our racquet recommendation/equipment section:
    Just look at all the posts that have something along the times of :
    "i need a new racquet, my budget is XX dollars"
    Or
    "i need durable strings, cause i can't afford to play with XX"

    While the actual playing costs are actually quite low already for badminton, many people still have trouble coming up with the means to play. That is the unfortunate state that badminton is in.

  3. #377
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    8,905
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    errrr. bad publicity does make sponsors think twice. It all depends on how bad the publicity is, and what the public's value system wil put up with at the time. Big sponsors have been known to withdraw sponsorships and endorsement deals even with megastars.

    Sponsorship for local or provincial events or even national events that don't attract a huge following, do not really affect anyone too much, as you rightly pointed out. Those are decisions taken on niche marketing or compassionate/passionate grounds, IMO. The criteria for events (OG, AG etc) will obviously be much different.

    Badminton can bring in the big money if it is managed correctly. But this does not have to be at the expense of fair play. This has been demonstrated in other sports in the last decade.

  4. #378
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    No grey areas
    rules are always grey. or LD would be disqualified for running off and celebrating before thanking his opponent and judges.

    4.1.2 Players must thank their opponents
    and Umpire before leaving the field of play to celebrate with their Coach or the crowd

    more grey that goes unpunished

    4.6 Trying to influence line judges
    Trying to influence the decision of line judges by arm, hand, or racket gestures, or orally.

    4.5 Failure to use best efforts
    could DQ the korean for saving his energy for the bronze match because he knew he couldnt beat LD

    Its all to do with interpretation of what is "honourable and sportsmanlike in rule 4.1.1"

    is it sportsmanlike to give yourself the best chances of winning a medal-yes
    was their behaviour honourable-probably not. but the format was asking them to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Last edited by BaggedCat; 08-10-2012 at 05:01 AM.

  5. #379
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,886
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    rules are always grey.
    Haha the quote of mine was "No grey areas within the context of this example." The example that was being referenced was the blatant not using best efforts and bringing sport into disrepute in the games in oly's. You can't just crop a couple of words out of a sentence then argue it when that wasn't my point. Having said all that how is 4.1.2 grey? not enforced maybe but not grey, same with 4.6. 4.5 I agree it is pretty grey but not when referencing the china vs Korea match in oly, if you get caught the rules are there in black and white but it's the getting caught part that is normally grey in 4.5. As i have said previously in this thread(before this incident) 4.5 is almost unenforcable and a near impossible rule to break. Turns out 8 muppets managed it quite easy. In my defense, I never thought I would see people be as stupid to push it so far as to purposely serving out etc.

  6. #380
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,886
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by XtC-604 View Post
    Because i don't see a problem. Match fixing has been a part of pretty much every competitive sport i can think of. You don't see outrage or anything in those sports, in fact its very much adorn to.
    Cricket, soccer, snooker for starters (massive outrage and punishments over the years in these sports).
    with regards to sponsorship, I can't state it clearer than Cobalt.

  7. #381
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    Haha the quote of mine was "No grey areas within the context of this example." The example that was being referenced was the blatant not using best efforts and bringing sport into disrepute in the games in oly's. You can't just crop a couple of words out of a sentence then argue it when that wasn't my point. Having said all that how is 4.1.2 grey? not enforced maybe but not grey, same with 4.6. 4.5 I agree it is pretty grey but not when referencing the china vs Korea match in oly, if you get caught the rules are there in black and white but it's the getting caught part that is normally grey in 4.5. As i have said previously in this thread(before this incident) 4.5 is almost unenforcable and a near impossible rule to break. Turns out 8 muppets managed it quite easy. In my defense, I never thought I would see people be as stupid to push it so far as to purposely serving out etc.
    its grey because it can go unpunished. black and white is - they either enforce it or they dont. if there is doubt of when a rule is enforced it can be termed grey. im sure someone could push 4.1.2 and 4.6. until they were punished, but they dont know that limit, so its grey.

    if you false start in 100m youre DQ - that is black and white. no interpretation or subjectivity.

    i got to the context of the example in the end. i was just providing extra examples of greyness. :P

  8. #382
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,886
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    its grey because it can go unpunished. black and white is - they either enforce it or they dont. if there is doubt of when a rule is enforced it can be termed grey. im sure someone could push 4.1.2 and 4.6. until they were punished, but they dont know that limit, so its grey.
    Breaking best efforts/sport-disrepute rules has never gone unpunished before due to the fact no case has been proven previously.
    RE: 4.1.2 and 4.6 - Just because the umpiring/ref is generous doesn't mean the rules are grey.

  9. #383
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    117
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    Breaking best efforts/sport-disrepute rules has never gone unpunished before due to the fact no case has been proven previously.
    RE: 4.1.2 and 4.6 - Just because the umpiring/ref is generous doesn't mean the rules are grey.
    your interpretation of a grey rule does not work in a real world scenario.

    if being up to the refs generousity doesnt mean its grey then
    in your cases, no rules ever are grey. even when you agree 4.5 Failure to use best efforts
    is grey, using your own interpretation of grey one could argue that it is not grey. you either use your best efforts or you dont, it just depends on if the ref is generous enough to punish you or not.

    i don think your interpretation of a grey rule is the commonly used one.

  10. #384
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,886
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    your interpretation of a grey rule does not work in a real world scenario.

    if being up to the refs generousity doesnt mean its grey then
    in your cases, no rules ever are grey. even when you agree 4.5 Failure to use best efforts
    is grey, using your own interpretation of grey one could argue that it is not grey. you either use your best efforts or you dont, it just depends on if the ref is generous enough to punish you or not.

    i don think your interpretation of a grey rule is the commonly used one.
    Exactly!! The rules are always there in black and white to be used by the governing body(BWF), e.g in cases like this one(the Olympics WD blunder). Therefore the Athletes/coaches should always be aware that the rules can be used, so it is a massive risk. Nobody can complain when the massive risk does not pay off and the rules are used, that there is some kind of injustice due to the format or whatever.
    This is the real world my friend - Many people do illegal things every day but that does not mean the crime is acceptable and most importantly that the law is grey because of this fact. It does not leave it up to interpretation just because some people get away with it.

  11. #385
    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    What do you guys think about having a Country Association quota of 2 for each tournament, that are always on opposite sides of the draw. But each country can also have as many professional athletes in the tournament as well. For instance CBA would be only allowed to field 2 representatives per tournament, but LD, CL, CJ can also be in the tournament provided that they are "licensed professionals" under BWF or something like that.

    Where the BWF would ensure that "licensed professionals" would ideally have little to no ties with their countries badminton associations. Hopefully this would clear up a lot of the controversy with regards to walk-overs and match throwing and would lead to more professionalism(athletes independent and playing for themselves) in the game overall.

  12. #386
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    [0,0,0]
    Posts
    497
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by V1lau View Post
    What do you guys think about having a Country Association quota of 2 for each tournament, that are always on opposite sides of the draw. But each country can also have as many professional athletes in the tournament as well. For instance CBA would be only allowed to field 2 representatives per tournament, but LD, CL, CJ can also be in the tournament provided that they are "licensed professionals" under BWF or something like that.

    Where the BWF would ensure that "licensed professionals" would ideally have little to no ties with their countries badminton associations. Hopefully this would clear up a lot of the controversy with regards to walk-overs and match throwing and would lead to more professionalism(athletes independent and playing for themselves) in the game overall.
    Nope, if you want to put a limit then you make it one and only one. Brazil doesn't get to send it's four best soccer teams and Canada doesn't get to send its four best hockey teams so fine. You want to emphasize the flag then the only fair way to do it is one participant per flag.

    This whole idea that a competitor has some kind of entitlement to a draw position based on nationality is ridiculous. While the structure of the OG sucked, what some people can't get their head around is that the Chinese had every opportunity to avoid each other in the early stage of the knock out stage. All they had to do was win their group. Well, they failed.

    The only way you are going to avoid this situation ever is by restricting the number of entrants to one.

  13. #387
    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I wasn't thinking about the Olympics when I made the suggestion. My suggestion is more geared towards like Super Series. I think if we can limit the National Association's role in badminton and replace it with more professionals, I think that would be a good step. The main point being is to separate the interests of the players and the national associations, which I think we all agree is not good for the game as it currently exist.

    For example: in this system, if the CBA can only send 2 players officially then they will either only have 2 players or be forced to make some players professional, which I believe players like LD & LCW & LYD & ZYL should and could be(financially speaking). I think in either case it would be acceptable and be a good transition to making the sport more professional like tennis. It would rely on the BWF to be able to stop collusion between professional players and the National Association. If either national assoc. or player violates they can be punished individually.

  14. #388
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    [0,0,0]
    Posts
    497
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by V1lau View Post
    I wasn't thinking about the Olympics when I made the suggestion. My suggestion is more geared towards like Super Series. I think if we can limit the National Association's role in badminton and replace it with more professionals, I think that would be a good step. The main point being is to separate the interests of the players and the national associations, which I think we all agree is not good for the game as it currently exist.

    For example: in this system, if the CBA can only send 2 players officially then they will either only have 2 players or be forced to make some players professional, which I believe players like LD & LCW & LYD & ZYL should and could be(financially speaking). I think in either case it would be acceptable and be a good transition to making the sport more professional like tennis. It would rely on the BWF to be able to stop collusion between professional players and the National Association. If either national assoc. or player violates they can be punished individually.
    For the super series I don't think limiting the players by country is a good idea. In fact, it sucks. The influence of the national associations needs to be reigned in. Limiting players to 2 per country during the regular tour isn't good for the game and it's not good for the fans. Off the top of my head, consider tennis. If they had that rule instituted the tennis fans would have never been treated to Micheal Chang's improbable and very exciting run and eventual victory at the French Open in 1987. The bottom line is that the BWF needs to align itself better with the interests of the players and not the national associations.

  15. #389
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    [0,0,0]
    Posts
    497
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BaggedCat View Post
    rules are always grey. or LD would be disqualified for running off and celebrating before thanking his opponent and judges.

    4.1.2 Players must thank their opponents
    and Umpire before leaving the field of play to celebrate with their Coach or the crowd

    more grey that goes unpunished

    4.6 Trying to influence line judges
    Trying to influence the decision of line judges by arm, hand, or racket gestures, or orally.

    4.5 Failure to use best efforts
    could DQ the korean for saving his energy for the bronze match because he knew he couldnt beat LD

    Its all to do with interpretation of what is "honourable and sportsmanlike in rule 4.1.1"

    is it sportsmanlike to give yourself the best chances of winning a medal-yes
    was their behaviour honourable-probably not. but the format was asking them to shoot themselves in the foot.
    OooooK, you (and quite a few others) are in severe need of a reality check. There is no grey area in the rules as they are written. The rules are not 'grey'. It is the enforcement of those rules that is grey and that is not uncommon or unusual in sport or in the laws of a particular land. For example, consider speeding. So this big issue you are trying to raise is hardly outside of the norm.

    Your trying to draw a parallel between the action of the WD players to LD not immediately shaking hands after his win and trying to say that his doing so should result in his DQ, show's you lack all sense of proportion to the point of being delusional.

    Let's hit this silliness by the numbers.

    4.1.2 Players must thank their opponents....
    Yes this rule is constantly being ignored by the officials in the BWF and I support their discretion in not enforcing this. However, if they chose to do so, the appropriate response isn't an DQ off the bat. The BWF would first have to issue warnings to players and if after a warning or two, players kept on violating this rule they could increase the sanctions the players faced. A DQ relative to such an offense is completely out of proportion to the harm done to the sport.

    4.6 Trying to influence line judges
    I agree that I see this happen too often and I would like to see the BWF clamp down on it. However, again the proper response would be to issue a warning to a player for a first offence, following offenses could face increasing levels of punishment such as points awarded to the opponent to fines for habitual offenders. Still this is no parallel to what went on in the women's doubles. For this to have any proportion to that you would need to have caught one of the players threatening or bribing a line judge.

    4.5 Failure to use best efforts

    DQ the Korean bronze medalist? First you need proof, second you'd need to show where he made the same kind of mockery of the game the WDs did. Good luck with that.



  16. #390
    Regular Member V1lau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    West Coast
    Posts
    375
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    For the super series I don't think limiting the players by country is a good idea. In fact, it sucks. The influence of the national associations needs to be reigned in. Limiting players to 2 per country during the regular tour isn't good for the game and it's not good for the fans. Off the top of my head, consider tennis. If they had that rule instituted the tennis fans would have never been treated to Micheal Chang's improbable and very exciting run and eventual victory at the French Open in 1987. The bottom line is that the BWF needs to align itself better with the interests of the players and not the national associations.
    The system would only limit the players representing the countries association, but you could have an unlimited number of professionals from the same country, who would be independent of those national associations. In a badminton example pls explain why the system sucks, because I don't understand your Micheal Chang analogue.

    If your saying the strength of competition might diminish and that would suck for the fans, I would argue the current system with a lot of walkovers is worse. At least with the purpose system you have a way to transition to a more professional system as oppose to the status quo.

  17. #391
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Arrakis
    Posts
    8,905
    Mentioned
    44 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    4.6 Trying to influence the decision of line judges by arm, hand, or racket gestures, or orally.
    Actually, I'm going to say something (possibly) outlandish.

    I'd like to suggest that 4.6 be retained the way it is, except to add the word "repeatedly."

    A player giving expression to his thoughts or doubts is something that adds a little spice from the spectator/tv-viewer's point of view. This helps retain and even maybe enhance viewership; more revenues; better times; TRPs, more ad revenues etc etc. Good for the sport.

    And from the angle of bringing more professionalism to the sport, this will also be an incentive for BWF and individual tournament organisers (the NAs) to train their line judges to ignore any pressure from prima donnas and local favourites. Line judges' performances must also be reviewed constantly by BWF appointed referees (someone here should know: is this being done already?) to bring them in to compliance.

Page 23 of 24 FirstFirst ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The Walkover Issue
    By twobeer in forum Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating
    Replies: 22
    : 12-06-2011, 04:32 PM
  2. Replies: 79
    : 07-29-2011, 08:44 PM
  3. Lin Dan walkover in MO
    By xymaerts in forum Malaysia Open / Korea Open 2011
    Replies: 368
    : 01-30-2011, 11:46 PM
  4. Replies: 17
    : 09-03-2010, 11:13 AM
  5. Rights of pictures on BC
    By Johansen in forum General Forum
    Replies: 2
    : 11-16-2004, 06:08 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •