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View Poll Results: Is Joaquim Fischer service illegal?

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  • ILLEGAL

    43 66.15%
  • LEGAL

    22 33.85%
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  1. #35
    Regular Member Maklike Tier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tactim View Post
    @Maklike Tier
    Well I have to say that the thread isn't "stupid". It's a legitimate concern which has brought up discussion about the rules and the purpose behind the rules. You say everyone is "on drugs" and the tone of your posts are somewhat confrontational.
    Cry me a river?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactim View Post
    While I do believe your points about how Fischer's serve is consistent and not deliberately meant to be deceptive, it doesn't follow the rules of how the service is legal. The main point of your counter argument is that as long as the player doesn't mean to deceive the player deliberately, you can serve in a variety of ways even if it violates some of the rules of service in some way or form. It may be part of JF's natural motion, but that doesn't make it any less illegal. Perhaps it's just that the rules need to be updated which I will not argue with, but as long as the current rules are in place, JF's serve is still illegal.
    Yes, it's illegal. However, the adverse effect in this instance outweighs the benefits. The damage done by enforcing the rule - destroying a players natural game, destroying the flow of the match - far outweighs the benefits of being a pedantic nazi and enforcing the rules to the letter. Umpires and Judges know this, this is why nothing has happened.

    Yes, the rule needs to be changed, because it's too absolute. I mean, look at Christinna Pedesen's bizarre serve. Technically there's two forward motions of the racket there, too. Any objectors?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tactim View Post
    Ultimately the point I'm trying to make is that just because something is accepted and is regularly done doesn't make it necessarily correct. In the end though I also don't think the concern is so groundbreaking that we all need to jump on JF's back on his serve. However he does need to be made to realize that he is pushing the rules a bit far with his serve.
    Not pulling him up is correct, the incorrect part is the rule. It needs expanding upon to implicitly read "forward motion with the deliberate intent to deceive" or something to that effect.

    Fischer doesn't need to be made to realise his serve is technically breaking the rules, the rules just need to be modified to include people's natural service motion that does not contravene the spirit of the game.

    People forget that. The OP has just jumped on a technicality here without prioritising that there are other issues that are much more pressing and by far much more important to discuss, such as the delay tactics between points, and especially earlier on in the year was embarrassingly atrocious for bad line calls.

    Me personally, both these things undermine the spirit of the game 1000 times more than the minutiae of someones natural service action.

  2. #36
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklike Tier View Post
    ...snip...

    Not pulling him up is correct, the incorrect part is the rule. It needs expanding upon to implicitly read "forward motion with the deliberate intent to deceive" or something to that effect.
    Can't have that. Too open to interpretation, and subjective. You just know there will be hordes of players and coaches waiting for just such an opportunity to create total confusion. And besides, which player will admit he served funny "with intent to deceive?"

    IMO its much better that rules be absolute. If they are too straitjacketed, well then, that's what referees and umpires are there for in the game, to use their discretion.

    But the other point you brought up about Fischer being made aware, etc... make me wonder, if his serve was deemed illegal or questionable, wouldn't you thnk the coaches and others around him would warn him and get him to make the appropriate corrections way back when? Instead, it seems a bit far-fetched to imagine they would passively encourage his (illegal?) serve, allow him to settle into a habit, and then make it extremely difficult to wean him off that habit when most required. Something doesn't make sense here.

  3. #37
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    seems illegal to me...

    illegal for sure.

  4. #38
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Is a serve illegal for sure if countless service judges over many, many years have never called it? Perhaps (y)our interpretation of the rules is simply incorrect ...

  5. #39
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    (since no officials have replied) ... or better yet the motion happening there. Only just watched that 12 sec. clip and I assume that first so called "foreward" movement is considered a continous movement towards the ready position as per bylaw 9.2

  6. #40
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    illegal for sure.
    And yet.... not a single one of those who interpret and enforce the rules, have called him....

  7. #41
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    (since no officials have replied) ... or better yet the motion happening there. Only just watched that 12 sec. clip and I assume that first so called "foreward" movement is considered a continous movement towards the ready position as per bylaw 9.2
    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    And yet.... not a single one of those who interpret and enforce the rules, have called him....
    let me call CantSmashThis, our umpire-in-residence, in to make a call.

  8. #42
    Regular Member Maklike Tier's Avatar
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    I'm about to lose it here. This is now verging on the coveted title of the "Dumbest thread ever".

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maklike Tier View Post
    I'm about to lose it here. This is now verging on the coveted title of the "Dumbest thread ever".
    Come on now Maklike.. Aren't you the same guy that started the thread "Text formatting BC posts doesn't work with iPad" thread in Badmintonforum????
    Last edited by twobeer; 12-01-2011 at 04:46 PM.

  10. #44
    Regular Member Andy05's Avatar
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    It is an illegal serve to me.

    Maklike, earlier you mentioned that calling this serve illegal would disrupt the players flow. As his flow is more important than a legal serve, do you agree we should be allowed to serve overarm? I mean if it is my natural serve then I don't want my flow changed either.

  11. #45
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Fellas,

    I didn't mean to start this thread to cause any trouble for JF or anyone. In fact, quite the opposite, as I really identify and admire his passion and determination on court since I play the same way too and I've previously had knee injuries and surgeries too like him.

    It was just a simple observation, but I thought since the laws of badminton were spelled out sooo many years ago even before he and his coaches were born (!), I thought they should understand this since we all do, and we are all playing and abiding by the same rules.

    Anyways, this is one of those "scratch your head moments" where you say, "huh?", as there are really no solid answers.

  12. #46
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    For me it's illegal... double forward movement is a confusing service. If I'm the opponent I'll complain for sure haha!

    Where's CantSmashThis, our umpire-in-residence for clarification?

  13. #47
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerQT View Post
    For me it's illegal... double forward movement is a confusing service. If I'm the opponent I'll complain for sure haha!

    Where's CantSmashThis, our umpire-in-residence for clarification?
    "Double forward" movement or simply positioning his racket in a rushed manner?

    If you were his opponent would you even notice it ?
    Last edited by demolidor; 12-02-2011 at 02:26 AM.

  14. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    "Double forward" movement or simply positioning his racket in a rushed manner?

    If you were his opponent would you even notice it ?
    Definitely. I always look closely at the racket and shuttlecock movement.

  15. #49
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerQT View Post
    Definitely. I always look closely at the racket and shuttlecock movement.
    Well, you didn't notice untill this thread now did you ? If you were in a game with him the service judge would a) disagree with you since they don't call it now, if you b) would even complain at all or see it as a double move in the actual situation

    No wonder OSIM has decided to sponsor the Super Series ^^ (I'll let you all think about that one)

  16. #50
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    The reason why I believe it is not called, after replaying various videos over and over again, is that of what demolidor says. It is a quick positioning of his racket and then a service. After slowing it down, I can see that he has the racket below the bird, he brings it forward and up to the shuttle and then does his service. In doubles/mixed, when both players are set, some players bring their racket up and forward to the shuttle and have it in a "set" position, which is what he does. But instead of holding it there for long, he starts his serve once he brings it to the set position. That is most likely why it has not been called.

    I'm pretty sure most umpires are aware of this, and it probably has been brought up to the referee's attention before, but umpires get together often and they discuss such things and probably have made an agreement that this serve is not illegal as it seems that no one complains nor is he deceiving anyone.

    So slowly watching the video, his racket is below the shuttle, and for service, most player holds their racket near the shuttle, move it back and then forward. If you slow down the video, you can see that he brings his racket up, and then forward to the bird to a set position, and then serve. If you watch the 12 second video closely, and ignore the 2nd motion, you can see that he is just bringing the racket up to the shuttle.

    Could this service be called still? Yes, like you all pointed out, there is no clear clarification to the rules. It just states that when both players are ready, the "FIRST" forward movement is the start of the service. But that varies by person and how strictly they want to hold that rule.

    Last notes: I think the serve is pushing the rules a bit, but I have seen similar serves that we discussed not call, and there are ways to push it even farther. I think Fischer-Nielsen needs to realize that he should change his serve to more of a stop in the "set" position before serving. The rules do need to clarify more on certain things about service. For example, there is no rule about rapidly moving your racket sideways, up and down before service. There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that.
    Last edited by CantSmashThis; 12-02-2011 at 02:14 PM.

  17. #51
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    @ CantSmashThis

    Thank you for your reply! I'm glad we were able to get some official input on this matter. It goes back to some of the points that I and Maklike Tier made earlier on. The serve, for all intents and purposes, is not illegal, however technically it can be illegal depending on how strict the judge is on the rules. However as Maklike Tier pointed out, the rules may not be perfect and need an overhaul on the specifics of a service action so there is less room for interpretation.

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