Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

[cobalt]

If it's for bragging rights, sure it's just a game.
When prize money and future ranking for prize money is involved, it becomes a job and if you cheat at a job people will get pissed.

You're right. However, my point was that it is not purely a mechanical "process" but an organic one, and will always require a more holistic view of the situation. That is why I referred earlier to "range of tolerance" and "discretion." The fact that almost all officials polled chose to interpret the serve in a more open-minded way should tell us that even in professional sport, there is place for common sense and reasonable-ness as opposed to letter-of-law and zero-tolerance. If that were the case, as Gollum correctly pointed out, a lot of players would have to be sent back to school.

[dimcorner]

You're right. However, my point was that it is not purely a mechanical "process" but an organic one, and will always require a more holistic view of the situation. That is why I referred earlier to "range of tolerance" and "discretion." The fact that almost all officials polled chose to interpret the serve in a more open-minded way should tell us that even in professional sport, there is place for common sense and reasonable-ness as opposed to letter-of-law and zero-tolerance. If that were the case, as Gollum correctly pointed out, a lot of players would have to be sent back to school.

Agreed.

I think as long as he always has that hitch and doesn't deviate from it then it's "ok". The moment he changes it to throw people off then it becomes iffy.

Tough because keeping shuttle below waist is another tricky one to call. I had someone tell me my serve is illegal (a lady I was playing against in mixed) so i said fine, i flicked all the serves from that point on to her and she had no good return after that.

[cobalt]

---snip-- Tough because keeping shuttle below waist is another tricky one to call. I had someone tell me my serve is illegal (a lady I was playing against in mixed) so i said fine, i flicked all the serves from that point on to her and she had no good return after that.

Ha, talk about backfire! Strange though, I was just thinking about the same thing: that "above/below the waist" rule, and the confusion it sometimes causes. I think a little tolerance should be allowed there as well, specially as we cannot "see" exactly where the last rib ends at the moment of serve! IMO, the racquet-angle-downward is a good one, and maybe they should expand on that "visible" and "measurable" component to set up a better rule for serves.

[visor]

Now that you fellas have mentioned waist serving faults, I've noticed that in the recent INA and SG super series, there has been much more service faults called re racket not in downward direction, above the waist, and even foot moving during serve(!). I can only imagine that BWF wanted to send a message to the players that they will be stricter in preparation for the upcomg Olympics.

[CantSmashThis]

Yes, for Indonesia Open, another umpire and I were chatting while watching. We both agreed there were quite a few missed service calls. Especially on above the waist. Some players serve near chest height but surprisingly weren't called.

[visor]

Yes, for Indonesia Open, another umpire and I were chatting while watching. We both agreed there were quite a few missed service calls. Especially on above the waist. Some players serve near chest height but surprisingly weren't called.

I know which players you're referring to... 2 of them happen to be INA players right?

[CantSmashThis]

I know which players you're referring to... 2 of them happen to be INA players right?

Yes, and especially one Malaysian player I saw :P

[twobeer]

Ha, talk about backfire! Strange though, I was just thinking about the same thing: that "above/below the waist" rule, and the confusion it sometimes causes. I think a little tolerance should be allowed there as well, specially as we cannot "see" exactly where the last rib ends at the moment of serve! IMO, the racquet-angle-downward is a good one, and maybe they should expand on that "visible" and "measurable" component to set up a better rule for serves.

Esiest would be a rule just saying the shuttle are not allowed to be hit higher than x cm above the floor when serving.. and then mark that height on the pole or the net for the service judge (or camera) to check that the serve is not to high.

Fair and simple rule. compared to an unfair (short players are penalized, and long players get an unfair advantage) and hard to call service rule..

[Stratlover]

Esiest would be a rule just saying the shuttle are not allowed to be hit higher than x cm above the floor when serving.. and then mark that height on the pole or the net for the service judge (or camera) to check that the serve is not to high.

Fair and simple rule. compared to an unfair (short players are penalized, and long players get an unfair advantage) and hard to call service rule..

That is a great idea. It would take most of the subjectivity out of the serve and make it more fair for everyone.

[StefanDO]

I welcome a criterion which doesn't give an advantage to either short or tall players. I'm just not sure if a x cm above the floor criterion is the solution. One may argue that tall players may have a disadvantage because for the maximum height of serve, their racket would point more downwards as compared to shorter players, right? I think this makes handling more difficult for some kinds of serves, e.g. a drive serve.

[Erik L.]

I am not so sure whether I would fault this service. It agree it looks a little unpleasant from where it is shown in the video, but I am not sure that a service could be played from that initial forward movement and I also do not see any real handling problems for the opponents. It is difficult to assess this from a distance. You have to sit in that chair in order to come to a proper decision as to whether this service should be faulted or not. There is a lot more to serving and receiving than the letter of the law.

[gundamzaku]

Agreed.

I think as long as he always has that hitch and doesn't deviate from it then it's "ok". The moment he changes it to throw people off then it becomes iffy.

Tough because keeping shuttle below waist is another tricky one to call. I had someone tell me my serve is illegal (a lady I was playing against in mixed) so i said fine, i flicked all the serves from that point on to her and she had no good return after that.

hahaha, that's the thing, if it's recreational or even at a local tournament level, why so serious. i have more fun during a long rally then when my opponent misses all his serves because i called them above the waistline.

[CantSmashThis]

Well, for the waist rule, they are planning to take care of that.

For the racket pointing downwards, usually this one is kinda tough for me to call when it gets super close because some players have that very little dip and especially on flick serves they do a very quick motion and it takes a while to actually picture in your mind where the shuttle was contacted on the serve.

[AlanY]

may be badminton can adopt the rule similar to table tennis.
umpire can issue a warning to the server if that getting close to illegal and next time you will be faulted.

[Henzy]

seems illegal to me...

I think this is an illegal serve. I would say something about it maybe.....

[llpjlau]

If I were the service judge, I would probably call it a fault serve. To me anyway, it certainly looks like a "double-motion" service.

Also, comments like "I didnt even notice it until this stupid thread came along" and "This is now verging on the coveted title of the "Dumbest thread ever"." are probably the worst comments I've seen on BC in a long while. Hit the close or exit button if it's so "dumb". There's no point having a BC forum at all if discussion is shunned.