Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

[visor]

Thanks CantSmashThis for clarifying the matter. Although it is a rather strange way to "set" a serve, kinda similar to his partner Pedersen, but different in speed.

[twobeer]

If you watch the 12 second video closely, and ignore the 2nd motion, you can see that he is just bringing the racket up to the shuttle.

So if you ignore it is double-movement it can be deemed legal.. hmm..

Out of curiosity when watching the video, which forward moment do you consider to be the first in his serve after the players are ready for serve??

9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.

[CantSmashThis]

So if you ignore it is double-movement it can be deemed legal.. hmm..

Out of curiosity when watching the video, which forward moment do you consider to be the first in his serve after the players are ready for serve??

9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.

If you watch in slow motion, his racket is moving forward but his wrist has minimal movement. It's his arm bringing the racket up. That's his 1st "forward motion". [From then on, he brings his racket back and uses his wrist to swing forward.] That's where I consider the start of his service.

A lot of players bring their racket up to the shuttle and move in a forward motion. Would you fault that? You can depending how strictly you want to interpret the rules. He just does it all in a quick motion.

If possible, can anyone slow-mo the videos? It will become more clearer once you see it in slow-mo.

[twobeer]

If you watch in slow motion, his racket is moving forward but his wrist has minimal movement. It's his arm bringing the racket up. That's his 1st "forward motion". [From then on, he brings his racket back and uses his wrist to swing forward.] That's where I consider the start of his service.

A lot of players bring their racket up to the shuttle and move in a forward motion. Would you fault that? You can depending how strictly you want to interpret the rules. He just does it all in a quick motion.

If possible, can anyone slow-mo the videos? It will become more clearer once you see it in slow-mo.

Thanks for your view, really interesting to read your take on this.

I think any player adressing a shuttle has to do that slow and obvious to make it clear that it he/she is adressing the shuttle not starting the serve..

I cannot really see how such a fast movement (that may even need slomo) could be considered adressing the shuttle? What if he did this two or three times in a row before hitting the shuttle? Would you still think the serve only starts at the final forward movement?

[cobalt]

If you watch in slow motion, his racket is moving forward but his wrist has minimal movement. It's his arm bringing the racket up. That's his 1st "forward motion". [From then on, he brings his racket back and uses his wrist to swing forward.] That's where I consider the start of his service.

A lot of players bring their racket up to the shuttle and move in a forward motion. Would you fault that? You can depending how strictly you want to interpret the rules. He just does it all in a quick motion.

If possible, can anyone slow-mo the videos? It will become more clearer once you see it in slow-mo.

Thanks for your clarification. It vindicates my observations and conclusions, i.e. that JF was kinda "taking aim" or if you will, "lining up his swing path" prior to actually serving. Your observation that he would serve himself well to increase the "pause" at the end of his lining-up routine, is a great observation. Had he to do this, I have a feeling we wouldn't be discussing his serve at all!

[NanoBatien]

Assuming he always makes the same small double motion, then if he ever serves without that motion, say at deuce in OG final, should the umpire should fault him immeadiately?

What if he suddenly serves with a slightly longer pause, i.e. vary the pause? That would be quite annoying when combined with the double motion, but would be technically legal. Again, what if its a once-off during OG final deuce?

Assuming he alwas makes that motion, he should probably stop doing it since it actually makes his serve easier to receive, since there is less ambiguity about the time when he actually hits the shuttle.

This is "special rule for individuals" is a can of worms waiting to explode, probably best if the umpiring board or whatever told him to stop doing it. Shouldnt be that hard for a professional sportsman to clean up his serve a little.

[demolidor]

Thanks for your view, really interesting to read your take on this.

I think any player adressing a shuttle has to do that slow and obvious to make it clear that it he/she is adressing the shuttle not starting the serve..

I cannot really see how such a fast movement (that may even need slomo) could be considered adressing the shuttle? What if he did this two or three times in a row before hitting the shuttle? Would you still think the serve only starts at the final forward movement?

Assuming he always makes the same small double motion, then if he ever serves without that motion, say at deuce in OG final, should the umpire should fault him immeadiately?

What if he suddenly serves with a slightly longer pause, i.e. vary the pause? That would be quite annoying when combined with the double motion, but would be technically legal. Again, what if its a once-off during OG final deuce?

Assuming he alwas makes that motion, he should probably stop doing it since it actually makes his serve easier to receive, since there is less ambiguity about the time when he actually hits the shuttle.

This is "special rule for individuals" is a can of worms waiting to explode, probably best if the umpiring board or whatever told him to stop doing it. Shouldnt be that hard for a professional sportsman to clean up his serve a little.

Seriously, "you all" seem to think it is a rationally thought out method of deception so he can possibly trick his opponents in the Olympic final with a secret weapon ...
It is not a special rule for individuals, anyone (player) with a rational mind would assume the point were CantSmashThis considers it the start of the serve is the start of the serve, which is probably why no one ever complains about it either . Those "rolling start" serves also mentioned are more annoying imo

(those)
"There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that. "

[twobeer]

Seriously, "you all" seem to think it is a rationally thought out method of deception so he can possibly trick his opponents in the Olympic final with a secret weapon ...
It is not a special rule for individuals, anyone (player) with a rational mind would assume the point were CantSmashThis considers it the start of the serve is the start of the serve, which is probably why no one ever complains about it either . Those "rolling start" serves also mentioned are more annoying imo

(those)
"There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that. "

Strictly speaking i don't think it even can be considered legal (with the current paragraphs and wordings), to adress the shuttle with a forward motion after the player are ready for service.
If this forward movement is OK it should be put in the laws of badminton.. currently there is nothing stating that you are allowed to move the racket forward in order to adress the shuttle, once players are ready for service..

[visor]

Those "rolling start" serves also mentioned are more annoying imo(those)"There's also no rule on moving sideways AND forward at the same time, I have seen that serve and we have discussed that type of serve with Charlotte (USA referee) and she says there is nothing in the rule that states they can't do that. "

That's right, since there are no rules stating that your body can't move before and during the serve. Now if they lifted or shuffled their feet before and during serve, that would be a fault because that is spelled out clearly a fault.

If LD, who used to serve with a double action, can change his serve to within the rules, I don't see why JF can't and shouldn't, as there are NO OTHER player who serves like that, which is clearly double action... ignoring the fact whether it's deceptive or not.

[cobalt]

They should teach people to serve the way Taufik does. Every time he serves it's like he's giving a demonstration...
"Look, my arm extends downwards."
"Look, the racquet is pointed downwards."
"Look, left-hand fingers are well below the last rib."
"Regardez-vous, both my feet are firmly planted on the mat."
"Watch now, I'm about to let go of the bird."
"Damn you, ChongWei! You know I can't move so fast anymore!"

[demolidor]

Strictly speaking i don't think it even can be considered legal (with the current paragraphs and wordings), to adress the shuttle with a forward motion after the player are ready for service.
If this forward movement is OK it should be put in the laws of badminton.. currently there is nothing stating that you are allowed to move the racket forward in order to adress the shuttle, once players are ready for service..

And by that you assume he is also "ready" before said forward movement while we contest he is only ready after said forward movement to position his racket (as apparently every professional opponent so far; of course the OSIM armchair quarterbacks here know better ).

That's right, since there are no rules stating that your body can't move before and during the serve. Now if they lifted or shuffled their feet before and during serve, that would be a fault because that is spelled out clearly a fault.

If LD, who used to serve with a double action, can change his serve to within the rules, I don't see why JF can't and shouldn't, as there are NO OTHER player who serves like that, which is clearly double action... ignoring the fact whether it's deceptive or not.

Since there appears to be no footage of this I will have to assume it was the same motion on every serve? And in that case how many years ago was that (since I cant spot it back in 2004)? Secondly: it's singles, hardly comparable since it doesn't have to be nearly as tight ... Ops just spotted it and no it is not the same since he already pulled it back once, brings it forward, pulls it back again and serves (and didn't get called).

In the end you/we/me/she can moan and groan all you want on this board ... I say: "let them play ..." (worry about LYB's legacy getting badminton kicked out of the Olympic program next vote )

[demolidor]

No fault:



Fault:

[demolidor]

Let me squeeze this in: his main serve at the time (2004) was still his forehand serve ... in 2006 still seems the case.

[twobeer]

And by that you assume he is also "ready" before said forward movement while we contest he is only ready after said forward movement to position his racket (as apparently every professional opponent so far; of course the OSIM armchair quarterbacks here know better ).

Arguing he isnt ready to serve before he does his final of several forward racket movements is quite illogical imop. I can understand why players does not complain, and even see logical resons for service judge to miss it completely or simply choose to disregard the rules as they think the serve isn't a problem. But I think saying that he is not ready to serve until he has made a quick forward movement whan all other players on court are ready for serve is really streching things!!

To me it is interesting to look at the problem from another angle.. Lets say a service judge DID call the serve citing the mentioned paragraphs in the rules. I do not think JF could argue or point to anyhting in the laws strengthening his case that it is legal, and that is indeed is not 2 forward movements once the service start.

It will be interesting to follow.. I think BWF really should add 9.x Adressing the shuttle one time when players are ready for serve is allowed and cn be done in a rapid movement.. If they want this serve to be legal.. Of course we can argue that it can be considered legal if no judge calls it.. But personally i think it should be possible to write the rules for service clear enough to make it clear enough without "interpretation"...

[Andy05]

I think the serve should be called a fault, particularly if it taunts the opponent into a motion before he strikes the shuttle.
In the LD videos PG clearly moves when LD does his dummy serve. That could give LD the advantage especially if it looks like it's going to be a flick then the second motion is a short serve. It looks like in the first video that PG moves back before moving in for the serve, if JFs serve 'preparation' movement induces a movement I think a fault should be called.

Also if what call would be made if he decided to strike the shuttle on his preparation move? If everyone is expecting the hit on the second move then he gains an advantage. Particularly as this would be legal without any dispute as there would be no double motion.

[Badmintan]

There's definitely a delay (hold) in the backswing. I think this can 'fake out' or 'deke' a rushing receiver.

Imagine if you rush Fischer's service and he flick it behind you? You get mad.

[demolidor]

I don't know why you are even still bothering:

"9.1 In a correct service:
9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the
receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s
racket head, any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an
undue delay;

Meaning, the normal order of a serve is: (address), pull back (9.1.1), start forward motion (i.e.. 9.2 the "start of the serve") and delivery (9.3) which should be common knowledge (and I more or less mentioned twice already on page 1) but 9.1.1 seems to be conviently left out all the time.

Case dismissed! . And in all your theoretical scenario's you can act receiver not ready

There's definitely a delay (hold) in the backswing. I think this can 'fake out' or 'deke' a rushing receiver.

Imagine if you rush Fischer's service and he flick it behind you? You get mad.

I think you need a better internet connection