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  1. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    As always, it's cooler's job to change topic when the old one is done.
    haiya
    why say it out?
    we all know already

  2. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    I don't think Sonnymak is using the dubious A>B, B>C then A>C "logic". His point is, the fact that CTF/LWW (and also Candra/Tony) still can match young pairs in 2007, when they were already around 30, shows that there is no big difference in physical ability between current players and players 10 years ago.

    TH cannot beat LCW now because TH is much slower now than himself in 2004. Are you saying TH in 2004 will not be able to match LCW today?

    Note: even today's PG, at age 33, considerably slower than 10 years ago, can still beat LCW once in a while and push LD to the limit.
    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    Now see who is using the A>B, B>C then A>C argument. LOL.

    In 2004 OG (within one week, yeah! ), Susilo beat LD 2:0, Boonsak beat Susilo easily (15:10, 15:1), TH toyed Boonsak (15:9, 15:2). So according to your logic, LD wouldn't even be able to push TH to the limit...
    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    As always, it's cooler's job to change topic when the old one is done.
    but i've presented my case that present best can beat old best. You haven't done so. Forget past generation best, using your example, even an active pro like TH having trouble on the current so so.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-16-2009 at 01:30 PM.

  3. #105
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Yang Yang vs. Lin Dan at their peak..

    ..so, this past weekend, i was out and about playing baddy and getting my behind creamed playing singles...

    Afterward, i chatted with this middle age M'sian guy. We were chatting and what do we know, the topic of comparing players of yesteryears and today came to the forefront.

    He told me, after watching Lin Dan in his full glory at last yr's Olympics and comparing to what he saw of Yang Yang in the 80s, he'd say both have eerily similar playing style. However, Yang Yang is still superior technically (esp. his x-court shots and fast drop shots) than LinDan. On the other hand, Lin Dan reigns in his stamina, speed and power.

    So, I then asked him, "Who does he think will win, between Yang Yang and Lin Dan, both lefties, if both played against each other at their peak age?". He paused for 2.25 seconds and told me "He feels using the old scoring system (15 pts), Yang Yang would kick Lin Dan off the court. However, using the new scoring system, Lin Dan would wipe Yang Yang off the court, simply because Lin Dan is such an offensive-minded player, which suits the current scoring system".

    So....there ya go...I'm sure cooler is itching to make a reply..

    For those interested in watching Yang Yang in action, here is a video of him in the 1987 World Championships MS Final match vs. Morten Frost:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3T8Fu071Rg
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-23-2009 at 04:54 PM.

  4. #106
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Just my fifty cent (tm)

    It's hard for me to imagine or compare the both. Frankly i cant see Yang Yang as a super awesome player despite all his titles. ZJH just seems to outshine him.

    Yang Yang doesn't really have any 'legendary classic match' where he totally obliterates another 'top class player' unlike both ZJH (joko AE final massacre) and Lin Dan (Olym Beijing 2008, LCW).

  5. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..so, this past weekend, i was out and about playing baddy and getting my behind creamed playing singles...

    Afterward, i chatted with this middle age M'sian guy. We were chatting and what do we know, the topic of comparing players of yesteryears and today came to the forefront.

    He told me, after watching Lin Dan in his full glory at last yr's Olympics and comparing to what he saw of Yang Yang in the 80s, he'd say both have eerily similar playing style. However, Yang Yang is still superior technically (esp. his x-court shots and fast drop shots) than LinDan. On the other hand, Lin Dan reigns in his stamina, speed and power.

    So, I then asked him, "Who does he think will win, between Yang Yang and Lin Dan, both lefties, if both played against each other at their peak age?". He paused for 2.25 seconds and told me "He feels using the old scoring system (15 pts), Yang Yang would kick Lin Dan off the court. However, using the new scoring system, Lin Dan would wipe Yang Yang off the court, simply because Lin Dan is such an offensive-minded player, which suits the current scoring system".

    So....there ya go...I'm sure cooler is itching to make a reply..

    For those interested in watching Yang Yang in action, here is a video of him in the 1987 World Championships MS Final match vs. Morten Frost:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3T8Fu071Rg
    Please pass on these 3 questions to your friend.

    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?

    PG is smart, but look how he ran out of ideas when faced LCW at this year Hong Kong SS final. TH has good technique, and he got beaten by a half trying LD at France SS final.

    I doubt YY or ZJH can do any better than them.

  6. #108
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    the problem with opinion poll (ie, democracy) is that everyone get 1 equal vote, without weighting on individual background knowledge. By their point of view, they are not wrong. Usually from their childhood upbringing and what they remember from old matches as their base of reference. When YY run around alot, sustaining long rallies, usage of lot of different kind of strokes and deception, the middle age M'sian guy believed YY has great skills and that attributed to great tactic and technique. He may not appreciate the long rallies can be due to having 2 equally level players competing or YY can't crush his opponent quickly although YY usually win in the end. From bruce lee teaching. he said, in movies and shows, he uses lots of arms waving, jumping flying kick, roundhouse kick to give great entertainment value and showoff his skills, and fights last a long time, 3 or more minutes. However, in real fights, he said, he doesn't use kicks, just simple basic technique and it should not last more then 0.5 minute. So if LD rip apart his opponent in short duration, most of us don't appreciate his efficiency and didn't see much fancy skills like other players. It's too bad some of us under value speed and power skills. They see real skills as strokes and deception. That is why TH garner so much popularity. He look great against someone lower than him (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vAhUljTmjU). As the pace cranks up, u get a TH at the 09 French open against LD. Don't get me wrong, i think TH is also very talented but his dropping off in stamina and speed surppressed his other skills

    I believe OSS works great for LD as well as he will not waste time and effort to finsh his opponent in 21 point when he can do it in 15 points.

    My analogy for that guy who gave his opinion of LD is like this: when he see a skinny guy in public, he view that skinny must be poor because he can't afford food and work alot. lol Of course, i'm just one person opinion as well
    Last edited by cooler; 11-26-2009 at 02:18 AM.

  7. #109
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default Dear Wong8Egg..

    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    Please pass on these 3 questions to your friend.

    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?
    ...
    ..i will try to bring those questions up to him. But i could tell you, when i first asked him abt his opinion, he was pretty frank.

    Again, the opinion is that of someone who had watched & followed Yang Yang & ZJH during their playing career. Further, taking both YY and LD at their peak, he differentiated the scenario as Yang Yang would probably prevail in the old scoring system and LinDan would probably prevail in the new scoring system.
    Now, i can imagine, even if he answers all those 3 questions honestly and still keeps the same view, i doubt any Lin Dan fans would accept his opinion.

    I'd like to read other BCers' opinions, esp. from those who had followed & watched Zhao Jianhua & Yang Yang (e.g. abedeng, sonnymak, Loh), on their chances vs. LinDan, if they were to play each other in their peak.

    ..but, i will try to ask him those questions again when i meet him on the baddy court..

  8. #110
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    i grow up watching YY & ZJW at their peak and In my opinion, YY & ZJH at their peak is no match for today top players like LD & LCW.

    Better Training, nutrition and equipments helps.

    Just like Carl Lewis 9.81second world record in 80s, now Usain Bolt is 9.51second.

    ZJH is my idol when growing up but we have to forget about sentimental value when make comparison.

  9. #111
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    How can Yang yang compare to Lin dan , guys look at how Lin dan destroy Lee chong wei at olympics games 08,, it will be the same when Lin dan jump smash ,Yang yang cant do anything abt it

  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrerkiko View Post
    How can Yang yang compare to Lin dan , guys look at how Lin dan destroy Lee chong wei at olympics games 08,, it will be the same when Lin dan jump smash ,Yang yang cant do anything abt it
    Exactly! Nobody can hit like LD does back then and no one can retrieve like LD back then. No matter how you see it or how you count the points there is no way the past could beat the present.

    YY or ZJH looks sharp in the past only because they were at the top of their era against a lesser opponent. If they are transport to present, I doubt they can look or play nearly as sharp in front of LD/LCW. They would left clueless on the court because they are outclassed in every category, offensive play, defensive play, speed, power and stamina.

  11. #113
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    The questions are good questions, but your examples... PG & TH are way past their primes. Just watch any of their games before 2004 and you will see the big difference in physical ability (for example: can they still follow their smashes as fast as before? The answer is clearly NO; Can they keep their pace like they did 5 years ago? The answer is again a clear NO.).

    Except for the LD in OG08 final, I don't think today's best MS is at higher level than the best MS players in 1999. Considering the rumor that ZJH beat SJ easily in a 7-pt game in 1997, I would not answer your questions very quickly...

    The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    Please pass on these 3 questions to your friend.

    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to outmaneuver LD or even LCW?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to penetrate LD or LCW defense?
    Do you honestly believe that YY or ZJH have the ability to defend from LD's smashes?

    PG is smart, but look how he ran out of ideas when faced LCW at this year Hong Kong SS final. TH has good technique, and he got beaten by a half trying LD at France SS final.

    I doubt YY or ZJH can do any better than them.

  12. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..i will try to bring those questions up to him. But i could tell you, when i first asked him abt his opinion, he was pretty frank.

    Again, the opinion is that of someone who had watched & followed Yang Yang & ZJH during their playing career. Further, taking both YY and LD at their peak, he differentiated the scenario as Yang Yang would probably prevail in the old scoring system and LinDan would probably prevail in the new scoring system.
    Now, i can imagine, even if he answers all those 3 questions honestly and still keeps the same view, i doubt any Lin Dan fans would accept his opinion.

    I'd like to read other BCers' opinions, esp. from those who had followed & watched Zhao Jianhua & Yang Yang (e.g. abedeng, sonnymak, Loh), on their chances vs. LinDan, if they were to play each other in their peak.

    ..but, i will try to ask him those questions again when i meet him on the baddy court..
    just for discussion
    if someone could make a huge separation without giving us the specific, i doubt his judgement This huge separation being YY can beat LD in OSS while LD would beat YY in NSS. I just can't fathom the theory that difference in scoring system would change thing around 180 degree.

    As an ex.
    TH's stamina is a recognized weakness but yet how come the NSS isn't helping him? He has won more and bigger titles under the OSS than NSS. Also in NSS, there is a break at 11 point too.

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    The questions are good questions, but your examples... PG & TH are way past their primes. Just watch any of their games before 2004 and you will see the big difference in physical ability (for example: can they still follow their smashes as fast as before? The answer is clearly NO; Can they keep their pace like they did 5 years ago? The answer is again a clear NO.).

    Except for the LD in OG08 final, I don't think today's best MS is at higher level than the best MS players in 1999. Considering the rumor that ZJH beat SJ easily in a 7-pt game in 1997, I would not answer your questions very quickly...

    The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.
    u r changing the parameter for comparison on the fly. I have said before, your what if LYB/ ZJH were allowed to be conditioned in today environment, things will go well for them. That is an assumption and not necessary plausible. I've said LYB could gain weight if he can eat today's food, plus new distraction from new environment. Why u only see pluses and not minuses on the what if's? Ok, so if ZJH or LYB train and condition for a year to adapt into today playing style, then they are 1 year older. U can't assume a conditioning period with a zero elaspe time. Best comparison is their best as is versus current best as is. Stop putting in too many what if add-on's to ZJH and LYB already best ability at their peak.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-26-2009 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #116
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Wink Dear cooler (BC's LinDan's die-hard & numero uno supporter)..

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    just for discussion
    if someone could make a huge separation without giving us the specific, i doubt his judgement This huge separation being YY can beat LD in OSS while LD would beat YY in NSS. I just can't fathom the theory that difference in scoring system would change thing around 180 degree.

    As an ex.
    TH's stamina is a recognized weakness but yet how come the NSS isn't helping him? He has won more and bigger titles under the OSS than NSS. Also in NSS, there is a break at 11 point too.
    - When i chatted w/that M'sian guy, he told me, this whole comparison revolves around the scoring system used as well as the playing style. Again, to him, a technical player is better suited for the OSS. While an offensive player like LD is better suited for the NSS. Sure, LD had won some titles during the OSS period, but he didn't start his domination until around 2006, the same time when the NSS started. Yang Yang is technically better than LD. LD's speed & power are better than YY.

    - Yes, my M'sian friend also brought up the example of TH. TH, to him, is technically better than LD. However, Taufik is not an offensive/attack oriented player like LD. Taufik at his peak & playing with the OSS, in the 2004 OG & 2005 WC, are proof enough of his prowess. The scoring system doesn't really affect much with a player's fitness (stamina). But it does affect the style of a particular player.

    Anyone else who witnessed Yang Yang and ZJH play in the 80s, other than SibugiChai, wants to chime in??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-27-2009 at 05:20 AM.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    The point is, if you just "transport" the 1990 ZJH/YY to today, most likely they won't be able to keep up with today's pace; But I believe the situation would change if you allow them some time, say several months, to get used to the badminton game today.
    It would be LD's nightmare IF Goku is taken to the real world, and giving him a several months to get used to the racket.....

  16. #118
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    Guess what I found.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or_5Zo6JLqc

    Some dude from the USA beat Ardy Wiranata in a local tournament. Although Ardy is already in his 40s but I am surprise he got beaten by a causal player with all his skills from the PAST...

    Consider he was a world class player back then along with Yang Yang and ZJH..... perhaps he hasn't played any badminton for the past 20 years??? Maybe ye333 could give us some insight.

  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wong8Egg View Post
    Guess what I found.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or_5Zo6JLqc

    Some dude from the USA beat Ardy Wiranata in a local tournament. Although Ardy is already in his 40s but I am surprise he got beaten by a causal player with all his skills from the PAST...

    Consider he was a world class player back then along with Yang Yang and ZJH..... perhaps he hasn't played any badminton for the past 20 years??? Maybe ye333 could give us some insight.
    Ardy is quite active in badminton.
    He's the head coach of a top private club here.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-27-2009 at 06:48 PM.

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