Past vs Present...

[Jasonvan]

Pete Sampras did beat Roger Federer in an exhibition match recently.

It was an exhibition match, with exhibition being the keyword... I don't think the end result will be a 3 set tie-break thriller if this was in a grandslam match... A better example could be when Michael Jordan came back with the Washington Wizards in the NBA, while Michael was and is still considered the best basketball player ever, he is not the best when he came back with the wizards, while his stats are respectable, it is because he was on a very poor team with him as the only good player(being part owner sure helps get you the ball)

[ctjcad]

..when he played with Da Bulls, Air Jordan was playing in a pretty much watered down league...Da Bulls was the only dominant team..I mean, which player or which team was Air Jordan's/Da Bulls' main rival??..

[Destricto_Ense]

Shaq / Orlando Magic??

[Wong8Egg]

......................................

[Wong8Egg]

sprinting is not synonymous with badminton. Case in point, Roddick has the fastest serve in Tennis History, But can he rack up his championship trophies against Federer? Does Federer have the best strength in any shot? Does Tiger hits the ball the hardest? Court games must be looked at differently as not all shots end up with a winning smash.

Jason.

Serving the fastest in tennis surely won't bring you a win, but a faster court coverage will. We are not saying today's player has only stronger smashes in badminton, but they also has a fitter body so they can reach the shuttle quicker for their advantage.

Additionally, some people believe that the players from past has better skills and technique and that I also disagree. I remember someone was pointing out that the double players from the past era can defend better and able to keep the rally for longer. However, lifting the shuttle up high is actually a secondary option and the best way to counter smashes is to drive them back so you can regain the initiative. Look at MK/HS's game, fast and flat and they won't even let their opponent to smash at them to begin with.

[cooler]

allow me to add, on the technique side of things as well.

In general, like wongegg said, past pros don't own all the techniques.

let me give an example, 1974 AE, hartono versus Gunalan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAXvT3jtFTY
even the commentator had noted that Gunalan is employing smashing and rush to the net tactic. Even in game 3, Hartono was still serving high serves. Gunalan won lotta points smashing at hartono's serves, as clean winners and/or leading up to a winning rally. Even Gunalan (4:24) serves low to make hartono lift and smash for a winner. Surely, even a junior MS of today knows that u don't do high serves especially when opponent is using smash and grab tactic. Yes, hartono won but i think with his other skills (and many of Gunalan unforced errors). Point is, such simple change of tactic wasn't even recognized by a veteran pro.

[sonnymak]

I loath to give my two cents worth on a working day but this thread I couldnt resist.

Someone post that how Li Yong Bo/Tian B Y couldnt be better that FHF/CY. I think it was Cooler but I could be wrong. To things in perspective.

This is what I observed. In 1992 Olympics, The top four of the world made it to the top four of the Olympics.

In the quarter finals, Tian By/ Li Y B beat the hard smashing and creative Cheah Soon Kit and Soo Beng Kiang. Their younger opponents represented the new way things were done, fast drop shots, lightning fast and steep smashes. Yet they beat them.

Rexy and Ricky were also the way to the future and if you see their match with Cheah and Soo in TC 1992 you will see the future. But in 1992, Rexy and Ricky were still struggling against Sideks.

Cheah later partnered Yap Kim Hock to rival Rexy and Ricky.

yet Park and Han beat Cheah and Yap in 1996!!

Cheah and yap in turn beat Lee and Yoo 1998.

Where does all these leading to? Well through out 1998, when Kim and Ha and Lee and Yoo were on the ascendant the old Cheah and Yap could still hold their on as well as rexy and Ricky.

Now imagine this, Lee Wan Wah and Choong T F were the second pair for malaysia and they could nt beat CHeah and yap until the CW final in 1998.

And This Lee Wan Wah and Choong could beat FHF/CY consistently most notably in 2004 AE Semi final and the WC in 2006. So Can you say that Tian B Y / Li yong Bo cant beat FHF/CY?

[JasonMichael]

I loath to give my two cents worth on a working day but this thread I couldnt resist.

Someone post that how Li Yong Bo/Tian B Y couldnt be better that FHF/CY. I think it was Cooler but I could be wrong. To things in perspective.

This is what I observed. In 1992 Olympics, The top four of the world made it to the top four of the Olympics.

In the quarter finals, Tian By/ Li Y B beat the hard smashing and creative Cheah Soon Kit and Soo Beng Kiang. Their younger opponents represented the new way things were done, fast drop shots, lightning fast and steep smashes. Yet they beat them.

Rexy and Ricky were also the way to the future and if you see their match with Cheah and Soo in TC 1992 you will see the future. But in 1992, Rexy and Ricky were still struggling against Sideks.

Cheah later partnered Yap Kim Hock to rival Rexy and Ricky.

yet Park and Han beat Cheah and Yap in 1996!!

Cheah and yap in turn beat Lee and Yoo 1998.

Where does all these leading to? Well through out 1998, when Kim and Ha and Lee and Yoo were on the ascendant the old Cheah and Yap could still hold their on as well as rexy and Ricky.

Now imagine this, Lee Wan Wah and Choong T F were the second pair for malaysia and they could nt beat CHeah and yap until the CW final in 1998.

And This Lee Wan Wah and Choong could beat FHF/CY consistently most notably in 2004 AE Semi final and the WC in 2006. So Can you say that Tian B Y / Li yong Bo cant beat FHF/CY?

Thank You Sonnymak. Yes, I remember those times.

I also remember a few years back when Misbun was already in his 40's but he still entered a few state open tournaments and actually managed to beat some current national players.

[jug8man]

i have been pounding the table for years and years in BF on the message that speed beat stroke skills. I've met many resistance. I talk about LD alot because i use him as an example frequently - how to develop the right skills the way it should be for a MS player. The backhand smash, backhand cross court drops, are mostly for show, not bread and butter core skills.

Let's not underestimate Lin Dan and only praise him for his speed and power.

He is defo carrying more than INTEL INSIDE to stay so well ahead of his competition

[Wong8Egg]

And This Lee Wan Wah and Choong could beat FHF/CY consistently most notably in 2004 AE Semi final and the WC in 2006. So Can you say that Tian B Y / Li yong Bo cant beat FHF/CY?

TH used to beat LCW consistently before 2005, but is it the case today??? Nope.

Also if you look at the H2H in MD
LYD/JJS > MK/HS
MK/HS > CY/FHF

And so can we say LYD/JJS is definitely better than CY/FHF? I don't think so. Even they all from the same era.

I am sure if I have all data with me I could trace backward to show LD is better than ZJH using your logic. LOL

[cooler]

I loath to give my two cents worth on a working day but this thread I couldnt resist.

Someone post that how Li Yong Bo/Tian B Y couldnt be better that FHF/CY. I think it was Cooler but I could be wrong. To things in perspective.

This is what I observed. In 1992 Olympics, The top four of the world made it to the top four of the Olympics.

In the quarter finals, Tian By/ Li Y B beat the hard smashing and creative Cheah Soon Kit and Soo Beng Kiang. Their younger opponents represented the new way things were done, fast drop shots, lightning fast and steep smashes. Yet they beat them.

Rexy and Ricky were also the way to the future and if you see their match with Cheah and Soo in TC 1992 you will see the future. But in 1992, Rexy and Ricky were still struggling against Sideks.

Cheah later partnered Yap Kim Hock to rival Rexy and Ricky.

yet Park and Han beat Cheah and Yap in 1996!!

Cheah and yap in turn beat Lee and Yoo 1998.

Where does all these leading to? Well through out 1998, when Kim and Ha and Lee and Yoo were on the ascendant the old Cheah and Yap could still hold their on as well as rexy and Ricky.

Now imagine this, Lee Wan Wah and Choong T F were the second pair for malaysia and they could nt beat CHeah and yap until the CW final in 1998.

And This Lee Wan Wah and Choong could beat FHF/CY consistently most notably in 2004 AE Semi final and the WC in 2006. So Can you say that Tian B Y / Li yong Bo cant beat FHF/CY?

first, off topic.
i know of a sonny mak here that i play with, he's MAS too

second,
no, it wasn't me who said that. I try to stay out of head to head comparison on doubles if u care to read my prior postings.

third, since u mentioned me, let me give it a try.
your comparision was FLAWED
u r comparing red apples with green apples.
a fairer way is to compare them at their similar maturity and development, like peak to peak phase. If we have a time machine, and turn back time for lyb/tby to their peak form, and then plop them down in a court right now with fu/cai at their peak form, who will win? i say fu/cai will win.

fourth,
same goes wif your other examples of comparing red apples with crab apples or green apples.

[cooler]

Let's not underestimate Lin Dan and only praise him for his speed and power.

He is defo carrying more than INTEL INSIDE to stay so well ahead of his competition

thx for your note. Yes, very little mention of that dept for LD.
don't know if u saw my skill pyramid, yes, there are 2 others qualities (IMO) that ride above speed and power but i didn't talk about it, because i don't need to yet Let say, i'm still winning by playing wif my left (non-dominating hand, just like LD hehehe

[cooler]

third, since u mentioned me, let me give it a try.
your comparision was FLAWED
u r comparing red apples with green apples.
a fairer way is to compare them at their similar maturity and development, like peak to peak phase. If we have a time machine, and turn back time for lyb/tby to their peak form, and then plop them down in a court right now with fu/cai at their peak form, who will win? i say fu/cai will win.

not done posting yet.

if fu/cai did loses to lyb/tby, he should be a considered a failure and should be totally ashamed because he can't produce a MD pair that he taught everything he knew about doubles, plus extra knowledge from many other coaches (tangfu, etc), and better nutrients and conditioning. This example is just to address lyb/tby vs fu/cai comparsion, not fu/cai vs kido/setiawan or other current MD pairs

for those nay sayers, u prolly have an excuse for my prediction.
If fu/cai did win over lyb/tby, you nayers will say, the match was fixed LOL

[ye333]

I don't think Sonnymak is using the dubious A>B, B>C then A>C "logic". His point is, the fact that CTF/LWW (and also Candra/Tony) still can match young pairs in 2007, when they were already around 30, shows that there is no big difference in physical ability between current players and players 10 years ago.

TH cannot beat LCW now because TH is much slower now than himself in 2004. Are you saying TH in 2004 will not be able to match LCW today?

Note: even today's PG, at age 33, considerably slower than 10 years ago, can still beat LCW once in a while and push LD to the limit.

TH used to beat LCW consistently before 2005, but is it the case today??? Nope.

Also if you look at the H2H in MD
LYD/JJS > MK/HS
MK/HS > CY/FHF

And so can we say LYD/JJS is definitely better than CY/FHF? I don't think so. Even they all from the same era.

I am sure if I have all data with me I could trace backward to show LD is better than ZJH using your logic. LOL

[ye333]

If you just pull LYB/TBY from 1990 and throw them on court, I agree that CY/FHF will beat them easily. However, things may change a lot if we give LBY/TBY several months to get used to the current styles and pace.

LYB said he could bench press 130kg while CY(Chen Yu, not Cai Yun)'s 100kg is already among the best in today's team China. Is past player physically inferior to present ones?

first, off topic.
i know of a sonny mak here that i play with, he's MAS too

second,
no, it wasn't me who said that. I try to stay out of head to head comparison on doubles if u care to read my prior postings.

third, since u mentioned me, let me give it a try.
your comparision was FLAWED
u r comparing red apples with green apples.
a fairer way is to compare them at their similar maturity and development, like peak to peak phase. If we have a time machine, and turn back time for lyb/tby to their peak form, and then plop them down in a court right now with fu/cai at their peak form, who will win? i say fu/cai will win.

fourth,
same goes wif your other examples of comparing red apples with crab apples or green apples.

[cooler]

Note: even today's PG, at age 33, considerably slower than 10 years ago, can still beat LCW once in a while and push LD to the limit.

no disrespect to PG but lets get real.
TH beat PG, then LD fling around TH, and i'm comparing all of them within the same week time framework, not what if's this and that years ago or decades ago.
PG to push LD to the limitLOL, maybe in beer drinking or ice water swimming.

Are u trying to out do Pjswift in the entertainment dept.?

[bad_fanatic]

I really don't think the players of the 80's and early 90's can match the players current time.

Even if we give the equipment technology to those of the past, I still don't think the players of the past can beat players of current. Not only are the players of current time stronger, they're also faster and more dynamic.