## User Tag List

1. @chris: Nobody is trying to say that spinning the shuttle is more efficient for speed/distance than just hitting directly. That would be retarded . The question is whether the direction of rotations are symmetrical regarding the effect on the shuttle, and also whether the rotation can be such that the rotation direction provides a (small) additional forward force to the shuttle.

@hybriddragon: I was just curious to know if you had any special knowledge in aerodynamics. Formal or informal is both perfectly acceptable. I myself am an electrical engineer with little aerodynamics experience, but I know enough to know that many things in aerodynamics/fluids can be rather subtle and counterintuitive. If I were an aerodynamics expert myself then we would not be having this discussion .

Tragically, it seems that none of us really know what we are talking about so we better stop proliferating even more untruths on the internet .

2. Lol, there is a reason I never directly answered the opening post.

And chris-ccc, yes, I do agree with what you have said so far as noted by my previous posts.

3. How about asking shuttlecock producers about this? Take it from me, if your shuttlecocks do not spin at their greatest rotational speed in a smash then you won't sell a single shuttlecock, simply because the shuttlecock will tumble down.
Perhaps many of you are confusing spin with 'spin'. Badminton players refer to net tumbles as 'spinning' a shuttlecock, which of course is wrong. 'Spinning' of the shuttlecock for a net tumble is not spinning but in reality an act of 'sabotaging' the shuttlecock's natural spin by neutralizing it to make it unplayable.
shuttlecocks spin fastest when you hit them at extremely high racket-head speed.

4. Now a good test for those who claim that spin will slow down a shuttlecock how about trying this out:
1. Try to hit a deep clear with a new shuttlecock and note the distance.
2. Break two feathers of the same shuttle and do the same clear. You will note the obvious sharp drop in spin rate to the extent the shuttle now wobbles and has a tendency to drop prematurely to the floor. Take off a few more feathers and it will not fly at all.
Now this loss in spin is not true spinning which many players, including coaches, wrongly believe. It is a lack of sufficient spin speed or rate that makes it wobble and fall.

5. Originally Posted by hybridragon
Lol, there is a reason I never directly answered the opening post.

And chris-ccc, yes, I do agree with what you have said so far as noted by my previous posts.
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Yes, sometimes a short and simple question is the best question to ask. Why? Because it zooms in (into the main issue).

From the opening post of this thread, I read the question as;

Which is more powerful - A smash done with more spinning of the feathers, or done with less spinning the feathers?

Some posters are saying that the shuttlecock must be spinning as it travels. But that is not the answer we want to get. It is a fact - that there is some spinning/rotation of the feathers as the shuttlecock flies.

The question is really - Will a shuttlecock travelling with more spin travel further/stronger/faster than a shuttlecock travelling with less spin (when both are hit by the same impact force)?

Then taneepak mentioned about 'net tumbles'. (which has nothing to do with the speed/velocity of a smash).

Maybe, I shall bring in this thread that I started for BCers, to know about the terms of;

* Sliced Flat Clear,
* Sliced Smash, and
* Spinning Netplay.

Click on this link to get there;

.

6. Well, here is one plastic/nylon shuttlecock manufacturer trying to come up with plastics that are as good as feathers, http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/58...scription.html.
Many like him have tried this before, all in vain so far. For one thing I do not believe plastics can come up with a shuttlecock that can spin on its major axis at anywhere near the speed of feathers.
In feather shuttlecocks factories, qc requires each high quality shuttlecock to be tested for its rotational speed, the higher the higher grade it will be given.

7. I'll see if I can answer a few questions here about these things, in my degree I did some stuff on parabolic flight paths and air resistance created by projectiles.
If I have managed to quote Hybriddragons picture *edit pic didn't copy* - The air placement following the shuttle does not include the air vacuum that the feathers pushing the air apart would create. This minivacuum would create turbulence behind the shuttle which is part of how a flight path is formed. Also the spin from a shuttle cannot be thought of a propulsion or decelerating force in the way hybriddragon described it earlier. Think of a shuttle as more of a watermill raising the water up a height (if that makes sense), the shuttle spinning so as not to pick the water up would spin faster and with less loss of rotational speed. Spinning so as to pick the water up would slow its rotational down as it loses energy from air resistance.
Another thing is that shuttles DO spin in flight. A faster hit would have more spin, up to a natural maximum, from then on you need to artificially add the spin. Adding spin clockwise or anti-clockwise will slow the shot down.
Spin when added to an object can be used to straighten a projectiles flight path, such as in rifles, however if too much spin is added the air resistance would be too great and then it becomes a decelerating force on the forwards motion of the shuttle as the shape of the shuttle and air flow both contribute to high air resistance.
Net-spin is totally different to what is being asked in this question, as the 'spin' in this condition is used to make the shuttle tumble end over end it is not adding or subtracting speed from the shot.

I think I covered everything I read, can't remember all of it

8. Originally Posted by chris-ccc
.
The question is really - Will a shuttlecock travelling with more spin travel further/stronger/faster than a shuttlecock travelling with less spin (when both are hit by the same impact force)?
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Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to get at. I think it's tough to test with a person as force imparted on a shuttle is subjective and not measured. It would be interesting to see the results from an objective standpoint where all the results are measured.

@andy05~

That was a good read. Pardon my previous drawing as I did not intend for it to show every variable. And I didn't propose the notion that spinning clockwise or anti-clockwise would create a propulsion/deceleration force, nanobatien did, which I contended against. However, I believe this part was quite important to ponder: (Which I completely agree on)

Another thing is that shuttles DO spin in flight. A faster hit would have more spin, up to a natural maximum, from then on you need to artificially add the spin. Adding spin clockwise or anti-clockwise will slow the shot down.

9. Most players and coaches use the word spin differently and may I add rather wrongly.
The major axis of spin of a feather badminton shuttlecock is the real 'spin'. 'Killing' the natural spin when doing a net tumble by saying you are spinning the shuttle at the net is not true spin, slicing a half smash or slicing when doing reverse-slice drop shots are also not true spin but additional forces brought to bear on the shuttle. That is why a badminton shuttlecock has very high Reynolds numbers and that is why it is such an interesting game. For the same reason plastics/nylon shuttlecocks have struggled for the past 50 years, always with false promises initially, but never delivered.

10. Here is a little fun game to try out the theory of spin of a shuttlecock.
Get a good grade goose feather shuttlecock and throw it as high and as far as you can, using your hand. Observe carefully the rotation or spin of the shuttle which is counter clockwise. Then try observing the shuttle's drift as it turns over and starts to fall down. It should drift right.
Try the same thing with a plastic and it will not spin as much nor will it drift right at turnover as much.

You can even put this spin/drift characteristics of clears to good use when playing the game. When clearing to the left side hit it a bit out and it will drift in. Don't try this on the right side, which will require that you clear a bit more inwards for some safety margin.

11. @hybridragon
Sorry for misquoting you, I was doing a long post and forgot who had said what that I was replying to for each point.

12. Now for all the coaches here are some simple questions:
Why should you do a net tumble with a right to left movement instead of the other way? Has it got something to do with a shuttlecock's natural spin? What if the feathers are overlapped the other way? Will the spin be reversed from counterclockwise (as seen by the hitter) to clockwise?

13. Originally Posted by taneepak
Now for all the coaches here are some simple questions:
Why should you do a net tumble with a right to left movement instead of the other way? Has it got something to do with a shuttlecock's natural spin? What if the feathers are overlapped the other way? Will the spin be reversed from counterclockwise (as seen by the hitter) to clockwise?
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If you would start threads on these topics (one thread for one topic), I would participate in them.

Question: Which is more powerful? - A smash done with more spinning of the feathers, or done with less spinning the feathers?

My answer is: A smash done with more spinning of the feathers will be slower and will have less power.
.

14. you guys should play with plastic more often, don't have to worry and think so hard about spinning less or more ... just smack it hard.

15. Originally Posted by visor
you guys should play with plastic more often, don't have to worry and think so hard about spinning less or more ... just smack it hard.
.
You have reminded me of this:

The current plastic shuttlecock will travel faster than a 'feathered shuttlecock' in a smash because of these reasons;

* Without spin, the plastic shuttlecock (compared to the feathered shuttlecock) will travel faster in a smash.
* With less rigidity of the plastic 'skirt' (compared to the stiff feather shaft), the plastic skirt collapses (folding inwards).

Therefore, a smash with a plastic shuttlecock is usually faster and/or more powerful than a smash with a 'feathered shuttlecock'.

Maybe, this is another topic... And perhaps, we can start another thread on this one.
.

16. Originally Posted by fmqpt791004
Hello, I have come up with 3 physics question on badminton to improve my backhand clear and attacking lift.

1. Does a good smash have a high spinning rate, low or no spinning?
A good smash = fundamental smash pose used(to endure your wrist, elbow, and shoulder) + high average speed generated

2. Will a spining (revolution) shuttlecock drop shorter or farther in horizontal distance than a no-spinning shuttlecock?
One of coaching vids said spin will cause a shuttlecock to travel farther, but I heard a spinning golf ball cause to lift and to fall short in horizontal distance.

3. Will Smashing a spinning shuttlecock result a faster average speed of shuttlecock? Assume that smash cause a shuttlecock to stop spinning. (I am not sure that that assumption is realistick...)- this question is related to question no.1.

I am not here to exam you, but just want to know physics behind badminton.

1. Yes, a smash will have a high spinning rate of the shuttle, with the jump smash the highest followed by ordinary smash.

2. A spinning shuttle, that is spinning on its axis, will go a longer, much longer, distance than a non-spinning shuttle. It is impossible for a shuttle, whether feather or plastic, not to spin when being hit with some force.

3. Almost all smashes on oncoming shots are hit against an incoming spinning shuttlecock. The speed of your smash is dependent on your skill. No, a smash will not cause a 'smashed' shuttlecock to stop spinning unless it has fallen to the floor.

BTW, plastics are not true badminton shuttlecocks as their behavior is closer to a round/spherical ball, especially with hard shots.

17. Frankly, I am flabbergasted by so much misunderstanding of a feather shuttlecock's spin. Even 'experts' get confused and start talking about spinning the shuttle with sliced drop shots, sliced smashes, reversed-sliced drops, and spinning the shuttle at the net. Now if all these 'spinning' can be done, pray please explain the direction and nature of such spins.

Put simply, a shuttlecock has to spin on its axis to go from one point to another point. Without this spin it is like a runner without legs. The spin is fast for fast shots and slower for slower shots. The spin is always counter-clockwise, as seen from the hitter after he has hit the shot (seeing from the back of the shuttle).

Now to put to rest this nonsense about more spin means slower speed :
As mentioned earlier try throwing a feather shuttlecock up and forward but slowly. Note the spin rate.
Next use the same shuttle and do the throw again but with increased speed. Notice the faster spin? Now tell me which one spins more and which one travels faster and with greater stability?

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