Videos format for badminton

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by modious, Jul 2, 2003.

  1. modious

    modious Regular Member

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    BRL mentioned that he's able convert MPEG2 to Divx4.4. The filesize shrunk from 600MB to 135MB! Just that he forgot to sync the audio with the video!
     
  2. protomedea

    protomedea New Member

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    But you have to remember that divx files can't be played on normal dvd/vcd player. You can get divx-capable dvd drive but the price is a bit steep and most have problems playing certain codecs. MPEG1 is MPEG1, but divx is a variant of MPEG4 and it comes in many different flavours, namely divx 3.11, divx 4, divx 5 and xvid. If you want small files, RV9 (Real video) and WMV9 (Windows Media) usually offer better compression than MPEG4. Just my 2c :)
     
  3. Hugo

    Hugo Regular Member

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    Yeah I downloaded his version and I thought it was quite good conversion. The +4x smaller file size is the thing that caught my attention though, cuz I would gladly sacrifice image quality for smaller size (not that BRL's file was poor image).

    So, BRL, mind telling me what program you used to convert to DivX??

    Thanks.
     
  4. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Although i havent used RV9 nor wmp9, i dont think either is better than divx 5.xx. RV9 looks better because they force a smoothing filter on the videos. This cleans up the noise and reduce the detail while at the same time sharpening the edges so you won't notice the lost of detail as readily. We can use that filter too to get the same results. RV9 also makes some bizzare claims about better image quality and faster frame rates but trades one for the other in different situations. You can do that too in divx, and you actually have more control over that... i.e. what levels and when to apply. WMP9 is pretty good but from what i recall they still use all those buffer packets that are useless to us since we arent streaming. With higher quality videos, the image quality can be very high with divx, and probably better than rv9 or wmp9. then again i'm a divx zealot so my opinion is biased.

    The main advantage of divx4 is that most OS's can play it. Not as universal as mpeg2 definetly but i think most of us aren't burning the videos for use as VCDs. Its just so much more convient to put them on the hard drive to view. An 120gig HDD can be had for $200cad right now... an equivalent amount of VCDs would cost $100, and you'd spend 2 days just finding the video you're looking for! So i think divx is the way to go. Since it takes up much less space we'll be able to have more of them too... which is a big plus.
     
  5. protomedea

    protomedea New Member

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    You didn't read my post thoroughly. I never said that either RV9 or WMV9 looks better than divx.

    Same here - although I would opt more for xvid, especially with the new build.

    The reason I was pointing out the disadvantage of having MPEG4 files is because I assume people will be playing these clips/videos on their dvd/vcd player. Most DVD player can play MPEG2 files and almost all can play MPEG1, but to get one that can play MPEG4 is not really worthwhile atm.

    True. If we can get enough people to sign up for MPEG4, we will definetely save lots of money because of the reduction in file sizes.
     
    #5 protomedea, Jul 3, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2003
  6. Mini Me

    Mini Me Member

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    as i mentioned earlier, here are my reasons for making mpeg2:

    advantages
    + can play on standalone dvd players
    + svcd requires less processing to put onto dvd later
    + higher resolution and bitrates

    possible disadvantages
    - large file sizes. sorry to sound selfish but this is of no concern to me. i am more interested in creating the best quality for a given file size. i don't own the tapes i convert so i can't re-encode them later if the quality is not up to scratch.
    - requires mpeg2 decoder to play the files on computer. if installing a mpeg4 decoder is no problem then there is no reason why installing a mpeg2 decoder should be a problem.

    modious is sending me tapes and he wants svcd mpeg2 so that is what i will make for him. i will be encoding to dvd mpeg2 for my own collection from now on. if anyone wants mpeg4 then feel free to re-encode the files but i have no intention of compromising quality to reduce file sizes. i would only be willing to make mpeg4 if someone sent me videos and specifically requested mpeg4 instead of mpeg2.

    remember all of these videos are being provided free to everyone. if you aren't contributing either donations or videos then you can't expect to ask for the format of your choice.
     
  7. jkusmanto

    jkusmanto Regular Member

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    Converting MPEG2

    Hi BigRedLemon and Protomedeo !!!

    Maybe this is a little bit out of Badminton, but has a connection with badminton vidoes.:D

    Since you guys can convert the videos to the smaller size than MPEG2 size, why don't you guys "teach" us how to do it ?;)

    Maybe your "technique" can help BF members who has a small disk storage.

    So, please tell us how you did it !!!
     
  8. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    There's one more disadvantage...
    I've downloaded some mpeg2 videos, and have found noticable "skips" every now and then. The downside of a high-bitrate encoding is that if you don't have a fast hardive and fast cpu with a good capture card, there's going to be skips, as is happening on some of your vids. The 2003 Sudirman cup semifinals mens singles of china v indonesia, Bao Chunlai VS Taufik Hidayat's second set is one example. Divx is a lot faster at encoding than mpeg2 so there should be almost no skips when encoding on a fast machine.

    Of all the codecs available, i'd say the top two is divx and mpeg2 because they are both "fairly open", supported my most OSes, and have good standalone support.


    btw, how do you encode your videos? Is the skips caused by a slow HDD or slow CPU/ram?
     
  9. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    Re: Converting MPEG2

    The method depends upon whether you want a straight conversion or if you want to edit it too. (as in improving the quality by editing the frames and audio.)

    If you want to do a straight conversion, download the HACKED version of virtual dub that supports mpeg 2. I.e. goggle "virtual dub mpeg2 ac3 hack". The latest version of the hacked progam should be almost as new as the unhacked version.

    Then go to divx.com and download the their codec (which ever one you want.)

    isntall them both.

    In virtual dub, open the mpeg2 file. Click (video)-->(compression)-->(codec*)-->(configure)

    *codec will be something like DviX 5.05 or whichever version you downloaded

    change encoding bitrate to whatever you like (300 is a good start.) Try different values to see if the loss quality is worth the loss in file size.

    Click ok, ok. The file-->save as
    and you're done.

    If you want to use the filters to resize the video, chop off the blurry areas, smooth out video grain, cancel flashes, etc, then you should learn it from online (vcdhelp, vcdgear, divx-digest, etc etc.) You'll get higher quality at a lower bitrate if you do this but it's time consuming to fiddle with and you could make it worse if you dont know what you are doing.)

    if you want to edit the audio tracks then export the audio and edit it in something like cooledit (my fav) and then reimport it back into virtual dub. The exported wav while be encoded in mp3 so when you save it use the same settings so you won't have to re-encode it again in virtual dub. Don't forget to sync the audio and video of course, if you do decide to edit the audio.
     
  10. protomedea

    protomedea New Member

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    I think you're creating some confusion in your statement. The skips are caused by dropped frames during capture. You're right about the possible limitation of the processing power, but this is not a disadvantage of the codec itself.

    I'm sorry but I can't stop laughing at this statement. Capturing + divx encoding at the same time = almost no skips? May I ask what type of processing power are we talking about? Even with my Dual Athlon MP system + Pinnacle Studio DLX I have to leave my system alone during analog captures, especially when we're talking about noisy/old sources such as the ones Mini Me was mostly dealing with.

    MPEG2 is not open, not even free if I may add. As for MPEG4 variants, only Xvid is really open source and totally free for both decoding and encoding use. Good standalone support for Divx/MPEG4? Are you kidding again? May I ask which part of the world you're living in? Please have a read at this statement posted by Darrius the Divx R&D Director himself about Divx/Xvid capable players.
     
  11. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    which is why i asked you how did you capture it. external decoder fed through firewire/usb? or straight through the pci capture card?

    i dont see what's so funny.

    I took the first minute of a VCD video (BoA's Amazing Kiss, if you must know) and saved it as a raw file. 405 megs of raw audio and video.

    I used virtual dub to encode it with divx 5.05 (single-pass at 500 kbits, 32kbits audio.) 62 seconds total. Averaged 30-40 fps, with the last 5 seconds taking 15 seconds to process. (To write the index I presume.) Slowest (higest) quality setting.


    I used TEMPenc to encode mpeg 2 (single pass CBR at 500kbits, 32kbits audio). Took 87 seconds! and this is at their normal quality setting. With motion search precision set at the highest (slowest) setting, it took a whooping 151 seconds, which is 249% longer than divx 5.05 on equivalent settings.

    And lets not forget that dvix 5 looks great with single-pass while mpeg 2 looks bad when only one pass CBR is used. Turn on vbr or two pass, and you've just doubled or tripled the time it takes again!

    Also since divx doesn't need to write the index until the stream has ended, it's continuous stream rate is much lower than the 62 second run suggest.

    I have no idea where you got the idea that mpeg 2 is fast... it's one of the slowest codes out there. It's only fast if you run it on a mpeg2 hardware accelerated capture card, but then again on a divx-accelerated capture card, it's got a mpeg 2 beat again.

    As a side note... i noticed something weird with mpeg2 at high motion search quality... it would skip periodically just like in the badminton videos. Doesn't occur for as long on the low levels though, but still noticably. Skips about 10-20 frames. Also interestingly enough, mpeg 2 files are bigger than divx EVEN AT THE SAME BITRATE!! I think mpeg2 is cheating a little.

    As for quality you can judge for youself.


    Mpeg 2 High

    Mpeg 2 normal

    Divx 5.05



    By open i should mean accessible.
    Btw i'm in Canada and there's lots of DVD players here that support divx. (yes i know you were being sarcastic)
     
    #11 bigredlemon, Jul 3, 2003
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2003
  12. protomedea

    protomedea New Member

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    You were referring to the skips caused by the codec itself, and I said no. It's not the fault of the codec, but because of the dropped frames caused by slow hdd/ram/cpu, etc.

    Mate, these are two separate process! You're not capturing + encoding in divx at the same time. First step, you took (captured) the first minute of BoA's Amazing Kiss, then saved it as a raw file, yes? Second step, you encode the file using VDub + Divx + whatever audio codec you're using. Please read carefully what I typed. I said "Capturing + divx encoding at the same time".

    Again, you did not read my post thoroughly. I never said MPEG2 is faster than divx. I wasn't even implying that.

    MPEG2 is known to have much bigger file sizes. Mini Me was doing it pretty much on the basis that with a simple cd burn process it can be played on most dvd players out there.

    I never doubt the quality of divx, but the usage of different codecs largely depends on the end purpose of the users. Like I said earlier, if we can convince enough people to move to Divx, we will definetely benefit from smaller file sizes without compromising video quality.

    If you mean accessible, even RV9 and WMV9 can fall into that category.
    A normal DVD player can be bought for less than 200 AUD nowadays. But you will find a hard time trying to convince people to shell out at least double that amount of money for a divx capable dvd player. Out of curiosity, which divx player (standalone) do you own?
     
  13. Mini Me

    Mini Me Member

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    this is the system i use for my video captures:

    athlon xp 1500+
    768mb pc2100 ram
    ati radeon 8500le video card
    80gb and 120gb hard discs (7200rpm)
    flyvideo 3000 tv capture card
    sb audigy sound card

    here is my process to go from vhs to mpeg2:

    1) capture to avi using virtualvcr (www.digtv.ws). audio is 44100hz/16bit/mono (my vcr is mono). video is delivered in yuy2 format and compressed with huffyuv. PAL sources captured at 768x576x25fps. NTSC sources captured at 720x480x29.970fps.

    2) if the files need to be joined then encode avis to svcd using procoder (www.canopus.com). a custom template is used because the procoder svcd templates are incorrect. mp2 audio for svcd must include crc, which isn't enabled in the existing templates.

    3) if the files weren't split then filter and frameserve avis using avisynth. encode using cinemacraft encoder sp (www.cinemacraft.com)

    4) mux the m2v and mp2 files to svcd format with bbmpeg.

    5) burn to cd using TSCV


    if you find skipped frames in the files, you can use virtualdubmod to open the file and parse the file frame by frame. as far as i remember there were no problems with bao chun lai v taufik hidayat. the source tape was very clean and there was only about 1 dropped frame out of every 10000. if you have skipping problems then i suspect your problem is caused by one or more of the following:
    - slow hd
    - slow cpu
    - slow video card (no hardware assistance for mpeg2 decoding)
    - you demuxed the file then remuxed incorrecty (all files have already been muxed correctly)
    - your standalone player was unable to handle short bitrate spikes
    - bad software player (one of the windvd 4.5 betas gave me problems)
     
  14. modious

    modious Regular Member

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    I've viewed the match and there wasn't any skips on my computer as well as on my DVD player.
     
  15. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    edit...

    mpeg 2 skips caused by bad codec/player combo on my part. My bad. (it was an older elecard codec from 2002 in zoom player.) Works fine on WinDVD.

    according to nVidia's website, my card has "full MPEG 2 Decode Processing Engine, with on board Motion Compensation and IDCT (inverse discrete cosine transform). " My CPU is around 10% when I play it so i doubt it's the cpu (xp1600). Ram is ddr2100 with about 100megs empty right now. HDD is 7200 maxtor 60 gig... not the fastest in the world but no slouch either.
    :eek:
     

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