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  1. #52
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    Sure it is unpleasant that the AE event being complained which the 2012 event is one the organisers would rather forget. Badminton professional players are generally a quiet and serious lot but the overrunning of the tournament surely make a few blew their tops such as having to play at an undignified time of after midnight or as TH claimed not sure when his match is on to be prepared for the game.
    Let us hope that the organizers of the London Olympic Badminton Committee can learn from the AE debacle and not repeat the same mistakes again.
    Surely the longer a match goes, the more tiring is to the spectators. A 35- 40 min of high quality match is preferred to one that goes beyond 1 hour it if it is a bland game. One may reminiscence about long matches but does one ever remember who actually played there after 1 month? Badminton has become more predictable as players understand the game having adapted to the existing scoring system. Players not wishing to take risk will just rally the shuttle in play and wait for the opponents to make mistakes. Nothing in the WBF rule to say you are not allowed to be a defensive and steady player. As a result some games can now go to 1 hour or longer if the third set is played. This was where the organisers in AE probably were caught being unaware that longer games can happen and this will never go away. Even more courts may not help should players take longer times to finish their games.

    Perhaps a one set of 30 in the qualifyings or first round maybe?

  2. #53
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    Good luck, advancing the sport is not going to happen anytime soon. There are too many vested interested involved. You have the player and their interests. You have all the various national associations and their interests and then you have the BWF. Too many forces pulling in too many different directions. Add to that you have the game currently dominated by China. When was the last time you heard of the nation of China making a positive contribution to anything?

  3. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by permanis View Post
    Sure it is unpleasant that the AE event being complained which the 2012 event is one the organisers would rather forget. Badminton professional players are generally a quiet and serious lot but the overrunning of the tournament surely make a few blew their tops such as having to play at an undignified time of after midnight or as TH claimed not sure when his match is on to be prepared for the game.Let us hope that the organizers of the London Olympic Badminton Committee can learn from the AE debacle and not repeat the same mistakes again.Surely the longer a match goes, the more tiring is to the spectators. A 35- 40 min of high quality match is preferred to one that goes beyond 1 hour it if it is a bland game. One may reminiscence about long matches but does one ever remember who actually played there after 1 month? Badminton has become more predictable as players understand the game having adapted to the existing scoring system. Players not wishing to take risk will just rally the shuttle in play and wait for the opponents to make mistakes. Nothing in the WBF rule to say you are not allowed to be a defensive and steady player. As a result some games can now go to 1 hour or longer if the third set is played. This was where the organisers in AE probably were caught being unaware that longer games can happen and this will never go away. Even more courts may not help should players take longer times to finish their games.Perhaps a one set of 30 in the qualifyings or first round maybe?
    Let me illustrate with some simple Maths why 5 courts is a must for Round 1. Assume there are 80 matches. If 5 courts, each court can take 16 matches. If each match average 45 mins, each court total time will average 12 hours. So if first match starts at 10 am,last match ends at 10pm. If 4 courts, each court total time wil average 15 hours. Then last match ends at 1 am. And what is the average match time in this AE? The BWF guideline should be the last match end time targeted at 10pm instead of 1am. In terms of match duration, if a match is intense and close, one hour is too short, eg LCW vs LD. If a match is long, predictable rallies like in WD, 10 min is too long. But no one can tell how matches can turn out, so setting a match time limit is unprofessional. There s no difference in match appreciation be it 4 or 5 courts if the organisers schedule a good mix of competitive/boring matches. At Singapore Open, we used to schedule like what is found in the current Swiss Open; by events , ie, a chunk of XD, WD. Can you imagine sitting through 2 hours of WD and nowhere to go? Now they try to schedule a good mix of events simultaneously so you can watch 3 matches and ignore the other boring 2. Scheduling is key to the enjoyment of matches. You can tell how intelligent, knowledgeable and manipulative the organisers are by just looking at the scheduling. For example, research will suggest AE is the most racist,often scheduling less rest time for Asian player vs European opponent. There were past indications they tried to get rid of LCW and WYH early but of course they are too good to fall victim to AE scheduling tricks. Another factor for scheduling consideration is to spread out matches of players with same coach so that the players are not deprived of equal coach benefits. Really,there should be a requirement for the BWF 4-court directive official to sit through Round 1. He will understand the stupidity of making it mandatory. In the meantime, I will write to Mr Ron Sim of OSIM. Please join me in doing so if you feel strongly about the 4 court directive.

  4. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Good luck, advancing the sport is not going to happen anytime soon. There are too many vested interested involved. You have the player and their interests. You have all the various national associations and their interests and then you have the BWF. Too many forces pulling in too many different directions. Add to that you have the game currently dominated by China. When was the last time you heard of the nation of China making a positive contribution to anything?
    China seems to dominate, not because they are that good. It s because they play fake matches ( or walkovers) like in AE ( 30 min matches when required). If their players have the freedom to fight it out, we will see a less dominant picture. Non-CHN players have to fight it out so why can t CHN show some guts and prove their player are good enough to win 5 tough matches to win a title. So far, there is little proof of that because their boss don t have the confidence they can deliver if allowed to. The day when CHN players have the freedom to play would be the start of China making a positive contribution. Otherwise they should stay home with their Chinese Badminton League ( which also turned out to be a sham eventually).

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    China seems to dominate, not because they are that good. It s because they play fake matches ( or walkovers) like in AE ( 30 min matches when required). If their players have the freedom to fight it out, we will see a less dominant picture. Non-CHN players have to fight it out so why can t CHN show some guts and prove their player are good enough to win 5 tough matches to win a title. So far, there is little proof of that because their boss don t have the confidence they can deliver if allowed to. The day when CHN players have the freedom to play would be the start of China making a positive contribution. Otherwise they should stay home with their Chinese Badminton League ( which also turned out to be a sham eventually).
    Sorry to disagree. I dislike China, I don't like the way they conduct themselves in international competition and I don't consider them a positive influence on the game. That being said, it is crazy to imply that they aren't that good. The fact of the matter is that they are that good and they are that good because the Chinese government spends a lot of money on the sport and evidence would indicate that the resources are used efficiently and focused in the right area. If you want a contrast look at the ongoing soap opera that is B.A.M. I honestly thought "B.A.M" was a Malyasian acronym for CulsterFcuk. So as much as I may dislike how China conducts themselves, I'm not interested in seeing them punished or banned. And, as a fan of the game I can't see how China 'staying home' does anything but hurt the game.

    China rigging China vs China matches is a symptom of their strength. Without the depth in talent that they have, such rigging would be impossible.

    If the Chinese team is exploiting the rules then it is the responsibility of the BWF to amend those rules to take away the incentive to game the system and so far, like every other aspect of their stewardship of the sport, they are a miserable failure.

    So, the fault lies with the BWF. Right now, the sport isn't run in anything resembling a professional manner.
    Last edited by thunder.tw; 03-14-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  6. #57
    Regular Member huangkwokhau's Avatar
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    I think all of us are overacting about this 3 am thingy...
    If you can suggest to change the score and I am sure that some of us will accuse BWF to contain China domination ( remember when BWF introduces 21 rally points and many of us were accusing BWF for that reason) and actually this 21 rally is much more exciting than ever...instead of fighting the changes..we should promote this posrt to another level.

    Also using 5 courts may not solve the solution as many of fine stadiums/hallls may not be able to accomodate this 5 court requirement and plus on 2nd round..we dont use 5 courts anymore..mostly 3 courts...is that efficient enough??

    This 3 am thing is unfortunate events and I am sure no BWF or England officials ( including linesmen) wanted to stay that long...you cant blame all to BWF except it could have started at 9 am instead of 10 am...as we cant foresee the outcome...I am sure if you make the game shorter then some of us will make a case that the game is too short to enjoy...
    Leave as it is now as BWF has done a fine job than in the past..BWF should continue making this posrt stay at Olympic's spot and make it more worldwide and players can earn the living by beaing a badminton player...

  7. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Sorry to disagree. I dislike China, I don't like the way they conduct themselves in international competition and I don't consider them a positive influence on the game. That being said, it is crazy to imply that they aren't that good. The fact of the matter is that they are that good and they are that good because the Chinese government spends a lot of money on the sport and evidence would indicate that the resources are used efficiently and focused in the right area. If you want a contrast look at the ongoing soap opera that is B.A.M. I honestly thought "B.A.M" was a Malyasian acronym for CulsterFcuk. So as much as I may dislike how China conducts themselves, I'm not interested in seeing them punished or banned. And, as a fan of the game I can't see how China 'staying home' does anything but hurt the game.China rigging China vs China matches is a symptom of their strength. Without the depth in talent that they have, such rigging would be impossible.If the Chinese team is exploiting the rules then it is the responsibility of the BWF to amend those rules to take away the incentive to game the system and so far, like every other aspect of their stewardship of the sport, they are a miserable failure. So, the fault lies with the BWF. Right now, the sport isn't run in anything resembling a professional manner.
    I don t dislike China. I despise LYB, the coward. And let s disagree. I maintain they are not THAT good. Like if they lose, it must be they are injured or give chance... Let s take CL, WR3. Is he really that good? How come they have to let him have a walkover so he can defeat LCW twice in finals? Because CL needed a breakthrough and he s unlikely to do it without a match break. And this AE. He had a one hour match with NTM and he lost to Tago the next day in another hour plus match. Where s his mental strength? His physical prowess? He cannot last 2 tough matches?He s not THAT good, is he, winner of 3 big titles, with two in a dishonest way. The way they are trained, they can defeat top players and lose to lower tier ones. Strange, isn t it? Every time a tournament has LCW is the best chance for other non-CHN MS to upset CHN MS. Why? Because the whole team just train for LCW so they would be unprepared for others. And CHN walkovers and fake matches are a symptom of their strength? Really? Other teams can t do it? You know THA and KOR teams started to do it recently and that probably got BWF worried enough to give warnings. I wouldn't be surprised that in the DEN/DEN XD match, the outcome was prearranged (check their H2H) and I was delighted because CHN XD would have rote trained for CP/JF. What happened to CHN XD, WR2? They mentally melted and physically paralysed because they were not prepared for KJ/TL onslaught. The whole match was quite embarrassingly one-sided. CHN, the Confused, on display. In fact, I hope non-CHN teams start to get wise and play 30 min matches with teammates, especially when their next opponent is CHN. Split the prize money, whoever wins G1 or benefit from ranking points more, wins. Over 10 tournaments of co-operation, the Danes can be top 10. Other teams can do it as well. Every team should do a CHN with every opportunity. Let s see how long the domination lasts when every team gets wise and join the help-one-another party. And by the way, at Singapore Open, we have been having fabulous matches and tournaments with minimal CHN players until last year when the CHN big guns turned up and told lies on TV worldwide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    I think all of us are overacting about this 3 am thingy...If you can suggest to change the score and I am sure that some of us will accuse BWF to contain China domination ( remember when BWF introduces 21 rally points and many of us were accusing BWF for that reason) and actually this 21 rally is much more exciting than ever...instead of fighting the changes..we should promote this posrt to another level.Also using 5 courts may not solve the solution as many of fine stadiums/hallls may not be able to accomodate this 5 court requirement and plus on 2nd round..we dont use 5 courts anymore..mostly 3 courts...is that efficient enough??This 3 am thing is unfortunate events and I am sure no BWF or England officials ( including linesmen) wanted to stay that long...you cant blame all to BWF except it could have started at 9 am instead of 10 am...as we cant foresee the outcome...I am sure if you make the game shorter then some of us will make a case that the game is too short to enjoy...Leave as it is now as BWF has done a fine job than in the past..BWF should continue making this posrt stay at Olympic's spot and make it more worldwide and players can earn the living by beaing a badminton player...
    I believe AE used 5 courts last year for Round 1.

  9. #60
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    In fact, any match fixing should seriously be dealt with lah. If every country starts to match fix like what you just described, then no more fun in watching badminton. And whoever or whichever country started it has set a very bad example or role model.

    There is a big case in cricket recently -- Chris Cairns "the master of match fixing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeer View Post
    In fact, any match fixing should seriously be dealt with lah. If every country starts to match fix like what you just described, then no more fun in watching badminton. And whoever or whichever country started it has set a very bad example or role model. There is a big case in cricket recently -- Chris Cairns "the master of match fixing"
    Well, BWF haven t done so and not likely to. But they always say only CHN has the depth to do it. BWF allow them to get away. So it s only wise that other teams join in and match fix like CHN. We have to do an experiment whether CHN dominates because of their match fixing advantage or real strength. Can CHN defeat a fresher strong non-CHN opponent and how consistently. It s not fun but why should only CHN do it? There will still be many good matches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    I don t dislike China. I despise LYB, the coward. And let s disagree. I maintain they are not THAT good. Like if they lose, it must be they are injured or give chance... Let s take CL, WR3. Is he really that good? How come they have to let him have a walkover so he can defeat LCW twice in finals? Because CL needed a breakthrough and he s unlikely to do it without a match break. And this AE. He had a one hour match with NTM and he lost to Tago the next day in another hour plus match. Where s his mental strength? His physical prowess? He cannot last 2 tough matches?He s not THAT good, is he, winner of 3 big titles, with two in a dishonest way. The way they are trained, they can defeat top players and lose to lower tier ones. Strange, isn t it? Every time a tournament has LCW is the best chance for other non-CHN MS to upset CHN MS. Why? Because the whole team just train for LCW so they would be unprepared for others. And CHN walkovers and fake matches are a symptom of their strength? Really? Other teams can t do it? You know THA and KOR teams started to do it recently and that probably got BWF worried enough to give warnings. I wouldn't be surprised that in the DEN/DEN XD match, the outcome was prearranged (check their H2H) and I was delighted because CHN XD would have rote trained for CP/JF. What happened to CHN XD, WR2? They mentally melted and physically paralysed because they were not prepared for KJ/TL onslaught. The whole match was quite embarrassingly one-sided. CHN, the Confused, on display. In fact, I hope non-CHN teams start to get wise and play 30 min matches with teammates, especially when their next opponent is CHN. Split the prize money, whoever wins G1 or benefit from ranking points more, wins. Over 10 tournaments of co-operation, the Danes can be top 10. Other teams can do it as well. Every team should do a CHN with every opportunity. Let s see how long the domination lasts when every team gets wise and join the help-one-another party. And by the way, at Singapore Open, we have been having fabulous matches and tournaments with minimal CHN players until last year when the CHN big guns turned up and told lies on TV worldwide.
    Interesting that you can separate LYB from the Chinese team. You really think that if LYB retires tomorrow the issue with China fixing matches goes away? You sighting that Korea has started match fixing (I wouldn't mind you sighting your evidence) just reinforces my point. If they've started, it simply means that they've achieved the team depth that has made this match fixing option available to them. I doubt the DEN/DEN XD was a fixed result or an indication that DEN is now involved in match fixing. Either way it comes back to the BWF failing at what their supposed to be doing. That is what this thread is about. If you want to have a whinge about the Chinese match fixing there are PLENTY of other threads dedicated to that topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    I think all of us are overacting about this 3 am thingy...
    If you can suggest to change the score and I am sure that some of us will accuse BWF to contain China domination ( remember when BWF introduces 21 rally points and many of us were accusing BWF for that reason) and actually this 21 rally is much more exciting than ever...instead of fighting the changes..we should promote this posrt to another level.

    Also using 5 courts may not solve the solution as many of fine stadiums/hallls may not be able to accomodate this 5 court requirement and plus on 2nd round..we dont use 5 courts anymore..mostly 3 courts...is that efficient enough??

    This 3 am thing is unfortunate events and I am sure no BWF or England officials ( including linesmen) wanted to stay that long...you cant blame all to BWF except it could have started at 9 am instead of 10 am...as we cant foresee the outcome...I am sure if you make the game shorter then some of us will make a case that the game is too short to enjoy...
    Leave as it is now as BWF has done a fine job than in the past..BWF should continue making this posrt stay at Olympic's spot and make it more worldwide and players can earn the living by beaing a badminton player...
    Some aspects of your post are funny. I especially like how you say 5 courts MAY solve the problem or some other aspect may be responsible.

    Here's the thing, they've held this event before. Over a hundred times actually, and at least the last 5 with the new scoring system. Yet, this is the first time I've heard of matches going on until 3 am. So if they've gone from using 5 courts in the past to using 4 this year then it's pretty damn obvious what the cause is. (I'm actually not sure about this, hence the 'if'). Of course this is in the absence of any other changes the geniuses at the BWF may have made this year.

  13. #64
    Regular Member huangkwokhau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Some aspects of your post are funny. I especially like how you say 5 courts MAY solve the problem or some other aspect may be responsible.

    Here's the thing, they've held this event before. Over a hundred times actually, and at least the last 5 with the new scoring system. Yet, this is the first time I've heard of matches going on until 3 am. So if they've gone from using 5 courts in the past to using 4 this year then it's pretty damn obvious what the cause is. (I'm actually not sure about this, hence the 'if'). Of course this is in the absence of any other changes the geniuses at the BWF may have made this year.
    Hm...When I said that 5 court MAY solve the problem??read all my previous posts that I am against using 5 courts....I prefer to have 1 day extra with 3 courts because in 2nd round, mostly 3 courts are being used...I mentioned that not all of stadiums are capable to house 5 courts......

    Tell me which aspects are funny???

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    Can we stay on topic? The topic is AE organisation and late finishes.....

    Not Match fixing or Whether CHN are any good or not...

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    I was there watching the game. Both players had the same conditions i.e. waiting around, and to be fair the better player won on the night (morning lol).
    Hate to say it but Gade (ok he was carrying an injury) looked tired and didnt have the killer instinct in the third game.
    Shame to see him bow out before a handful of spectators

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    Hardcore staying until the end!!

    I agree, the conditions were the same for both. I guess pg just let it get to him more.

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    When Djokovic and Nadal played a 6 hour match, most people were happy to see an epic match for so long, even into the night.
    We get a good several hours of Badminton, by elite athletes, then people moan there was too much badminton and the athletes complain they weren't ready...

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