Is the shuttle in or out?

[nightin9ale]

If the round head part of the shuttle is outside the line, but the tails/feathers of the shuttle hit the line, is it considered in or out? Thanks.

[amleto]

it is practically impossible for that situation to happen.

where ever the shuttle first makes contact with the ground is the point to consider. There is nothing in the rules stating that it must be the cork's contact point with the floor.

[phili]

It is not that unlikely. Had it in a tournament a few weeks back.

[amleto]

It is highly unlikely. The shuttle would probably have to be totally inverted and spinning at a high rate around its natural axis.

[Alapongtai]

When i got line judging not too long ago, they told me its out if the cork touches outside the line regardless of where the feathers touch

[phili]

It is highly unlikely. The shuttle would probably have to be totally inverted and spinning at a high rate around its natural axis.

Ehm no. For example if you do a mid-court drive that gets a little long or with point smashes this can happen.

[amleto]

mid court drive is never going to end up with feathers touching down first. or a point smash

[|_Footwork_|]

i think the cork always touches the ground first. this point has to be considered. correct me if i'm wrong...

[phili]

mid court drive is never going to end up with feathers touching down first. or a point smash

I guess you didn't read carefully enough

[Line & Length]

Don't know what angle the tangent between cork head radius and skirt extremity makes with a shuttle's axis. However, if the shuttle hits the ground whilst traveling at a shallower angle, by definition it will glance feathers first.

I have had the situation once. It came from a bodged net kill which went (at pace) about 10-15 degrees below horizontal. Thankfully both feathers and cork were out, so there was no controversy.

Can we at least agree that the situation is rare but possible?

As for the actual question, amleto is correct. There is no specific mention to part of shuttle, so I'd go for whatever touches first.

[Chayady]

When i got line judging not too long ago, they told me its out if the cork touches outside the line regardless of where the feathers touch

Correct!!
Just see the cork, don't bother to see the feather.

Even there is a very super slim possibility that the feather might be touching the floor first, it is still the cork that count.

[amleto]

I guess you didn't read carefully enough

It doesn't matter what kind of drive it is. If it's from midcourt, it aint landing in without hitting the cork first.

[craigandy]

Don't know what angle the tangent between cork head radius and skirt extremity makes with a shuttle's axis. However, if the shuttle hits the ground whilst traveling at a shallower angle, by definition it will glance feathers first.

I have had the situation once. It came from a bodged net kill which went (at pace) about 10-15 degrees below horizontal. Thankfully both feathers and cork were out, so there was no controversy.

Can we at least agree that the situation is rare but possible?

As for the actual question, amleto is correct. There is no specific mention to part of shuttle, so I'd go for whatever touches first.

Not possible with a drive within the space of a badminton court. Angle from top of net to backline is greater than angle of cork edge to skirt edge so even if hit at a million miles per hour it's not possible.

[Line & Length]

Sad I know, but I thought it would be fun to work it out:

Height of a badminton net is 1.55m at the posts (rule 1.10), so let us say shuttle is 1.60m from the ground. Half-length of court is 6.7m, so the angle is the arc-tangent of the ratio, which comes out at 13.43 degrees. However, the diagonal of a half-court (Pythagoras of 6.7 and 6.1m) is 9.061m, which similarly gives an angle of 10.01 degrees.

Taking the smallest skirt diameter of 58mm (rule 2.2.3), the longest feather length of 70mm (2.2.2) and the largest base diameter of 28mm (2.2.5) (via the arc-sine of the ratio of difference in radii to the length of the feather), I get a half-angle of 12.37 degrees. This is greater than the straight drive angle but not the cross.

Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.

[craigandy]

Sad I know, but I thought it would be fun to work it out:

Height of a badminton net is 1.55m at the posts (rule 1.10), so let us say shuttle is 1.60m from the ground. Half-length of court is 6.7m, so the angle is the arc-tangent of the ratio, which comes out at 13.43 degrees. However, the diagonal of a half-court (Pythagoras of 6.7 and 6.1m) is 9.061m, which similarly gives an angle of 10.01 degrees.

Taking the smallest skirt diameter of 58mm (rule 2.2.3), the longest feather length of 70mm (2.2.2) and the largest base diameter of 28mm (2.2.5) (via the arc-sine of the ratio of difference in radii to the length of the feather), I get a half-angle of 12.37 degrees. This is greater than the straight drive angle but not the cross.

Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.

correct never considered a cross court drive so it is possible. Only one problem what speed does it need to be hit at for gravity to take next to no effect on the heavier (cork) part of the shuttle by the time it has covered over 9m? Faster than anyone could possible drive a shuttle would be my guess.

[phili]

It doesn't matter what kind of drive it is. If it's from midcourt, it aint landing in without hitting the cork first.

I never said otherwise. It's just that no one said that the feathers land before the cork.

[craigandy]

Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.

You also got better results when you used a wider skirt which would cause even more drag than the narrower one hence the cork go down more degrees, so the optimistic values may be less likely to achieve skirt first contact, anyhoo a lot more drag on feather over cork over 9m anyway you look at it to make this possible me thinks.