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  1. #18
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    it is both.

    even the top players don't have all the skills, and even when they have the skills, they can achieve a higher level of proficiency on it.

    eg. i am sure WSX can smash and attack, but her attacking ability is far inferior to some of her peers. she can use some coaching and practice in that regard. a good example is Gong Zhichao, she used to be a purely defensive rally player, at one point in her career, she started focusing more on offensive and in the end when she won the Olympics, she is much more rounded player with excellent attacking as well as rally abilities. those can only be attained from a technique coach.

    teams have both technique and strategy coaches to focus on different aspects of the game.

  2. #19
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    Why does Lin Dan need a coach? Because no human being is perfect. There is always something you can do better. Even for Lin Dan. And only a private one-to-one coach will focus specifically on your imperfection.
    Last edited by pcll99; 06-05-2012 at 01:10 PM.

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    it is both.

    even the top players don't have all the skills, and even when they have the skills, they can achieve a higher level of proficiency on it.

    eg. i am sure WSX can smash and attack, but her attacking ability is far inferior to some of her peers. she can use some coaching and practice in that regard. a good example is Gong Zhichao, she used to be a purely defensive rally player, at one point in her career, she started focusing more on offensive and in the end when she won the Olympics, she is much more rounded player with excellent attacking as well as rally abilities. those can only be attained from a technique coach.

    teams have both technique and strategy coaches to focus on different aspects of the game.
    You are of course correct.

    As you said WSX can probably smash and attack as well as anybody, but in actual match play, her decision making and general "go to" tactics probably don't lend itself as naturally to an offensive style of play as some other players on the tour. Thus, when the coach reflects with the player that she needs to start playing a more attacking game, the coaches job is now to help that player work those skills into their game, as well as refining them where possible. However, I believe the psychological challenges and changes would be more difficult than the technical ones.

    I am sure there are exceptions, where a player has to be taught a completely new shot, but I still feel the mental aspect is the more important for a top level coach.

    I guess in my mind, when I think about a coach coming to a player they are working with and lining up the style changes that they feel are necessary, I would expect the player to be able to do everything they are saying already, but they will now teach that player some new/better/different ways to apply these tactics. As the player keeps practising, they will get better at their new drills and skills, but I do not think there will be much of a technical input from the coach. I guess I think the coach is there for determining the "where and why" of the skills, rather than the "how" (at the top level).

    Anyhoo. These are just my musings and you have already given an excellent counterexample above regarding Gong Zhichao I don't know of that player by the way...

  4. #21
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Some don't really need a coach

    .
    When players have already decided/determined to carry out their own plans (of actions), they don't really need a coach.

    As for me, as a coach, I have found some trainees like that - and I keep telling them;

    "Why come to me for coaching when you don't want to learn from me?".
    .
    Last edited by chris-ccc; 06-05-2012 at 02:46 PM.

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .
    When players have already decided/determined to carry out their own plans (of actions), they don't really need a coach.

    As for me, as a coach, I have found some trainees like that - and I keep telling them;

    "Why come to me for coaching when you don't want to learn from me?".
    .
    That depends. Different students, different objectives, different learning styles, different coaches.

    I have mentioned about the student needing to be open minded. But it also comes from trust in the coach. I suspect the harder ones to coach are those who already have experienced the game and play in leagues/competitions.

    For this group, although they have the insight into their own performance, changing a style of play (e.g. footwork, technique), may require big changes in their fundamental way of standing, body positioning, preparation. Simply speaking, it becomes very difficult to change and of course, their game will suffer temporarily.

    Whether they want to go that far is another matter. They may just say "It's just too hard". I know of one such person - very fast, generates good power, has some unorthodox techniques which work. However, the racquet preparation at mid court and net play is weak. Against regular good league players he can get away with it. Once the gameplay goes up to very good level, it limits his ability to cope. Does he change (and accept short term detriment), can he accept change or does the coach just do feeding to help him practice his poor technique with better consistency?

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    sometimes i think of badminton players as artists, like divers and gymnasts. Their moves look beautiful.

    Do the best artists/musicians have coaches?
    Last edited by pcll99; 06-05-2012 at 11:35 PM.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcll99 View Post
    sometimes i think of badminton players as artists, like divers and gymnasts. Their moves look beautiful.

    Do the best artists/musicians have coaches?
    There are directors/vocal coaches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    That depends. Different students, different objectives, different learning styles, different coaches.

    I have mentioned about the student needing to be open minded. But it also comes from trust in the coach. I suspect the harder ones to coach are those who already have experienced the game and play in leagues/competitions.

    For this group, although they have the insight into their own performance, changing a style of play (e.g. footwork, technique), may require big changes in their fundamental way of standing, body positioning, preparation. Simply speaking, it becomes very difficult to change and of course, their game will suffer temporarily.

    Whether they want to go that far is another matter. They may just say "It's just too hard". I know of one such person - very fast, generates good power, has some unorthodox techniques which work. However, the racquet preparation at mid court and net play is weak. Against regular good league players he can get away with it. Once the gameplay goes up to very good level, it limits his ability to cope. Does he change (and accept short term detriment), can he accept change or does the coach just do feeding to help him practice his poor technique with better consistency?
    The more ingrained a bad habit is, the tougher it is to change it. That's why it is best to have a coach from the get go.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris-ccc View Post
    .

    Ask yourself why do businesspeople attend business courses. Why not learn by doing business by trial and error?

    Ask yourself why do students ask for private tuition for their their school/university work. Why not work harder by spending more time studying books by oneself?
    A very experienced teacher friend of mine says you can't teach anybody anything they couldn't teach themselves.

    Business people go on courses for all kinds of reasons: they are insecure, they don't know what they don't know. Their company feels it should put on training and so they must attend. A training course is easier than doing real work. It is an opportunity to stay at a hotel or conference centre, have a few laughs with colleagues, have a few drinks, maybe sleep with the secretary or the boss.

    Students who get private tuition: they are lazy and want somebody else to make some of the effort, and they can afford to pay for that. Or they are unable to keep up with the work and hope that the tutor will carry them though.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by BernieR View Post
    A very experienced teacher friend of mine says you can't teach anybody anything they couldn't teach themselves.

    Business people go on courses for all kinds of reasons: they are insecure, they don't know what they don't know. Their company feels it should put on training and so they must attend. A training course is easier than doing real work. It is an opportunity to stay at a hotel or conference centre, have a few laughs with colleagues, have a few drinks, maybe sleep with the secretary or the boss.

    Students who get private tuition: they are lazy and want somebody else to make some of the effort, and they can afford to pay for that. Or they are unable to keep up with the work and hope that the tutor will carry them though.
    Except most of the time, those people who could have taught themselves do not have the knowledge of where or how to start, and are lacking experience on the quickest way to achieve something. That is why people pay for coaching or attend seminars - they are paying for the expertise and experience that someone else has. And in this way, they may achieve their goals much quicker than before.

    In my opinion, students who get private tuition are EITHER the lazy ones who can't be bothered to motivate themselves, OR they are the exceptionally hard working ones who will look for advice and help from any source possible, because they are driven to achieve as much as possible and maximise their own potential by accelerating the learning process.

    The generalisations that you are applying to those who chose to pay for tuition of any kind is a little too general.

    So, whilst what your friend said is true to a point - you can probably achieve yourself anything that a teacher could have helped you with (in most cases) - what you seem to have completely missed is that in most cases people are NOT successful because they lack the skills and experience to succeed. Whilst they could acquire these skills and experience over the course of a lifetime, it may seem like a better use of their time to accept help and experience from those who can help. I.e. tutors/coaches/lecturers.

    Please do not brand all people who pay to go to school, for example, as lazy. Because actually, those are very often the ones trying extremely hard.

  11. #28
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    Two big differences a good coach could make are:

    1. Feedback - If you learn yourself, it's almost like a one way street. You can compare this to hiring a coach who has poor communication skill. You simply can't know if you're learning things correctly. As it turns out in life, people do often time misinterpret information. In a private lesson, you coach's feedback is also instantaneous; you don't have to wait till 1000 repetition later, review your recording (which you'd need to do to gain feedback for yourself), only to find out your practice is not even close to the model you're after.

    2. Prioritization - If you pick and choose what to learn, you'd be using your own "layman" viewpoint. You may find it impressive to learn trick shots first, learn smashes, learn backhand clear. Meanwhile, shots and footwork you need large percentage of time are neglected. Given enough time and determination, eventually, and hopefully, you'd learn everything there's to learn. But if you hire a qualified coach, he should know what you'd need the most, and thus guide you to practice/improve that first, or teach you those skills first. Given the same short period of time, a player under a coach's guidance should show better improvement in game performance than one without.

    Finally, private coaching enables the instructions tailor to your individual needs, rather than that of a general class of players at possibly varied skill levels and needs. Here I'm referring to those who already take training, but in group setting. Of course, the drawback of private classes is expense.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by raymond View Post
    Two big differences a good coach could make are:

    1. Feedback - If you learn yourself, it's almost like a one way street. You can compare this to hiring a coach who has poor communication skill. You simply can't know if you're learning things correctly. As it turns out in life, people do often time misinterpret information. In a private lesson, you coach's feedback is also instantaneous; you don't have to wait till 1000 repetition later, review your recording (which you'd need to do to gain feedback for yourself), only to find out your practice is not even close to the model you're after.

    2. Prioritization - If you pick and choose what to learn, you'd be using your own "layman" viewpoint. You may find it impressive to learn trick shots first, learn smashes, learn backhand clear. Meanwhile, shots and footwork you need large percentage of time are neglected. Given enough time and determination, eventually, and hopefully, you'd learn everything there's to learn. But if you hire a qualified coach, he should know what you'd need the most, and thus guide you to practice/improve that first, or teach you those skills first. Given the same short period of time, a player under a coach's guidance should show better improvement in game performance than one without.

    Finally, private coaching enables the instructions tailor to your individual needs, rather than that of a general class of players at possibly varied skill levels and needs. Here I'm referring to those who already take training, but in group setting. Of course, the drawback of private classes is expense.
    This is an excellent post!

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    Simple Answer. Yes It is always effective if you have a non-bias good coach.

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    how to find a good coach???

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    That is a question for another thread.

    In fact, a question of two parts.

    A) how to find a coach?

    B) is the coach the right coach for the learner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CkcJsm View Post
    Hm..interesting.

    But I think my question was a little misunderstood but it helped me answer questions that I never thought of .

    I didn't mean that you don't need a coach though; I was also talking about when some parents send their kids to private training only once a week for one hour, would that be effective for the kid or a little bit waste of money. Since it is expensive and they don't practice outside.

    I also wonder what coaches tell players like Lin Dan...
    Recently I increased my children's training from once a week to twice a week as they still like the game. Seen a big improvement in skill. It's important to note, the rate of improvement is different at different times for individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    Recently I increased my children's training from once a week to twice a week as they still like the game. Seen a big improvement in skill. It's important to note, the rate of improvement is different at different times for individuals.
    Two times a week badminton in total or two times private training plus xx times other training/games?

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