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  1. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    The issue now is more with the question of why China has so many players to choose from and with the unparalleled pool of coaches and facillities, they still cannot produce good men doubles players. Not just that, I think XD is going to be a big issue soon. Definitely something is wrong with the Mainland Chinese mentality. They cannot think out of the box when others are ahead of them. The same for technology, without counterfeiting and being a copycat, they cannot reproduce the same success as USA and Japan.Same case here in China. They still lack something similar to Tang Xianhu's touch.
    Rote training method not so effective for MD. Syllabus too extensive. Too many good non-CHN MDs to study for exam.

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    Whoever these Indonesia Chinese players are, wherever they originate from. CBA should focus on recruiting players from that particular province where the chinese immigrants left to settle in Indonesia.

    That's where the badminton genes come from I suppose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    The issue now is more with the question of why China has so many players to choose from and with the unparalleled pool of coaches and facillities, they still cannot produce good men doubles players. Not just that, I think XD is going to be a big issue soon.

    Definitely something is wrong with the Mainland Chinese mentality. They cannot think out of the box when others are ahead of them. The same for technology, without counterfeiting and being a copycat, they cannot reproduce the same success as USA and Japan.

    Same case here in China. They still lack something similar to Tang Xianhu's touch.
    As to your para. 2, it used to be that CHN started with concentrating on manufacturing and becoming the workshop of the world but lately they are beginning to move up the value chain and producing truly "Made in China" products. Just to name a few, Space technology, supercomputers(by designing their own microprocessors),high-speed rail,telecom handsets and solar cells. China is fast going beyond "counterfeiting and copycatting" and spending massively in research and development and will be a significant source of innovation in the future to challenge US and European dominance in Science and Technology according to some influential think tanks, as witness the rapid rise in patents and scientific outputs.

    Back to MD and XD, if they are really the weak links,esp in team championships, I'm sure they will work on it.
    Last edited by Justin L; 07-07-2012 at 01:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    As to your para. 2, it used to be that CHN started with concentrating on manufacturing and becoming the workshop of the world but lately they are beginning to move up the value chain and producing truly "Made in China" products. Just to name a few, Space technology, supercomputers(by designing their own microprocessors),high-speed rail,telecom handsets and solar cells. China is fast going beyond "counterfeiting and copycatting" and spending massively in research and development and will be a significant source of innovation in the future to challenge US and European dominance in Science and Technology according to some influential think tanks, as witness the rapid rise in patents and scientific outputs.

    Back to MD and XD, if they are really the weak links,esp in team championships, I'm sure they will work on it.
    With no success, if it was not for Cai Yun-Fu Haifeng and competent women players like Gao Ling, China would have not been this successful in MD and XD for the last 8 years. Their other MD players are equally useless and do not contribute much to China's success. Just piggy backers on these three players for success.

    My take is CBA is not doing the right thing and do not have the right people to bring change for the better in the team. Lin Dan's success as well as Cai-Fu's are just delaying the inevitable problems China is going to face in MS, MD and then XD.

    Once Lin Dan and Cai-Fu are gone, China will sink even much worse than Indonesia.

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    WD and WS, China could still remain firm on their dominant position. As long as you feed the WD players with steroids/testosterones and train them with male sparring partner, a gold is guaranteed for WD. China will never run short of finding strong WD pairs since the training system is that straight forward.

    WS is slightly complex but I have to say China is actually very lucky to have Wang Yihan, the last surviving member who was with the last batch who dominated badminton scene for almost 10 years (Xie Xingfang, Zhang Ning, Gong Ruina, Zhou Mi, Wang Lin and etc) for those who didnt know. She has the qualities which differentiates herself with the current crop of players like LXR, CXJ, HL, SY, WSX and more to come. Sure China will have endless supplies of WS players, but are they ready to take on the bigger stage. I think not.

    This shows that you need the right players coming out at the right time to set the record straight. Unfortunately China doesnt have that kind of players in MS and MD at the moment to succeed the current batch. XD will be a bigger problem soon I reiterate.

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    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Maybe the Golden Era of World Badminton has just begun.

    Is China really regressive - on the downhill trend? Just because it has not been as successful as before in it's strong events. Or the rest of the world have finally become more serious and invest more of their resources in the once considered "backyard, garden game" because badminton has finally caught the imagination of the young of this fast, powerful, exciting yet delicate, "Nothing Comes Close" feather sport - thanks to the unsung work of national badminton associations, the BWF and the favorable publicity that travels right into our homes through the TV especially.

    So now other countries have also benefitted from the export of expert knowledge from the
    badminton powerhouses through professional coaches and regular exchanges of material,
    facilities and expertise. China's dominance, together with its hitherto badminton strong counterparts like Indonesia, has now taken a setback. The other countries have taken the challenge and raised their own standards to the detriment of China et all. Is this good or bad?

    The bar will be raised higher as a variety of inputs from different nationalities across different disciplines combine to inject greater expertise, scientific knowledge and research to this intricate game. Future and better TXH's, Morton Frost's, Li Mao's, Park Joo Bong's, 'LYB', etc, who can look "outside the box" will enter the scene as even China itself is now able to send their nationals into outer space and bring them back. Only the continued popularity can provide this concerted energy to drive badminton onwards and upwards.

    Badminton equipment suppliers the likes of Yonex, Li Ning, Victor, Flypower and their western counterparts will challenge each other to come up with the latest in design and material. And this 'battle' will be ongoing to the benefit of all badminton lovers.

    This coming London Olympics will send badminton rocket-high into the homes of billions. Badminton will open the ears and eyes of especially the young who will later become addicts
    to this "f-game" instead of spending all their time on e-games..

    The golden era of world badminton has just begun! Let us rejoice!
    Last edited by Loh; 07-07-2012 at 08:45 PM.

  7. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    WD and WS, China could still remain firm on their dominant position. As long as you feed the WD players with steroids/testosterones and train them with male sparring partner, a gold is guaranteed for WD. China will never run short of finding strong WD pairs since the training system is that straight forward.

    WS is slightly complex but I have to say China is actually very lucky to have Wang Yihan, the last surviving member who was with the last batch who dominated badminton scene for almost 10 years (Xie Xingfang, Zhang Ning, Gong Ruina, Zhou Mi, Wang Lin and etc) for those who didnt know. She has the qualities which differentiates herself with the current crop of players like LXR, CXJ, HL, SY, WSX and more to come. Sure China will have endless supplies of WS players, but are they ready to take on the bigger stage. I think not.

    This shows that you need the right players coming out at the right time to set the record straight. Unfortunately China doesnt have that kind of players in MS and MD at the moment to succeed the current batch. XD will be a bigger problem soon I reiterate.
    Excuse me,did you make a mistake,steroids is a banned substance,a performance-enhancing drug with harmful long-term(sometimes short-term) side-effects?

    Looks likely then,CHN's shuttlers won't be as dominant as their paddlers;it may be a bit premature to say CHN's badminton is on the downward trend but let's wait at least until after the London Olympics, maybe a year or so,to see how it turns out. Even if CHN is less dominant and continues to win more than any other nation,isn't that good enough? I'm fine with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Maybe the Golden Era of World Badminton has just begun.

    Is China really regressive - on the downhill trend? Just because it has not been as successful as before in it's strong events. Or the rest of the world have finally become more serious and invest more of their resources in the once considered "backyard, garden game" because badminton has finally caught the imagination of the young of this fast, powerful, exciting yet delicate, "Nothing Comes Close" feather sport - thanks to the unsung work of national badminton associations, the BWFe20and the favorable publicity that travels right into our homes through the TV especially.

    So now other countries have also benefitted from the export of expert knowledge from the
    badminton powerhouses through professional coaches and regular exchanges of material,
    facilities and expertise. China's dominance, together with its hitherto badminton strong counterparts like Indonesia, has now taken a setback. The other countries have 4aken the challenge and raised their own standards to the detriment of China et all. Is this good or bad?

    The bar will be raised higher as a variety of inputs from different nationalities across different disciplines combine to inject greater expertise, scientific knowledge and research to this intricate game. Future and better TXH's, Morton Frost's, Li Mao's, Park Joo Bong's, 'LYB', etc, who can look "outside the box" will enter the scene as even China itself is now able to send their nationals into outer space and bring them back. Only the continued popularity can provide this concerted energy to drive badminton onwards and upwards.

    Badminton equipment suppliers the likes of Yonex, Li Ning, Victor, Flypower and their western counterparts will challenge each other to come up with the latest in design and material. And this 'battle' will be ongoing to the benefit of all badminton lovers.

    This coming London Olympics will send badminton rocket-high into the homes of billions. Badminton will open the ears and eyes of especially the young who will later become addicts
    to this "f-game" instead of spending all their time on e-games..

    The golden era of world badminton has just begun! Let us rejoice!
    A Golden Era of World Badminton, not just China's, an interesting view that I tend to agree with. Rather than CHN regressing,it's the rest of the world that's catching up, closing the gap,raising the bar, and that's a very good sign.
    Last edited by Justin L; 07-08-2012 at 02:07 AM.

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    JustinL, a year or so after the Olympics will not change our view of China's form but we will be continually clouded by the presence of Lin Dan and his co. . They will still be around until the next Asian Games and who knows they might even stay on to play in Brazil for their fourth Olympics. I

    We'll see after the Olympics how it turns out for XD reshuffling, Zhang/Zhao might even be split because i reckon they might not go far with this combination. ZN needs to find a new partner because i do believe he has potential but only XD whereas MD he is not good at all. MJ needs a better partner who is reliable and has brain to dictate the rhythm of the game unlike XC whom i do not understand how he is winning all these SS while he is not a world class player to begin with so MJ deserves a better matching partner.

    MD and MS are the main point of this discussion. What is CBA doing ? I think more of hogging the rewards from what LD and co. brought to the table and doing nothing to lay out a contingency/succession plan when the decline of Chinese dominance becomes really apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    JustinL, a year or so after the Olympics will not change our view of China's form but we will be continually clouded by the presence of Lin Dan and his co. . They will still be around until the next Asian Games and who knows they might even stay on to play in Brazil for their fourth Olympics. I

    We'll see after the Olympics how it turns out for XD reshuffling, Zhang/Zhao might even be split because i reckon they might not go far with this combination. ZN needs to find a new partner because i do believe he has potential but only XD whereas MD he is not good at all. MJ needs a better partner who is reliable and has brain to dictate the rhythm of the game unlike XC whom i do not understand how he is winning all these SS while he is not a world class player to begin with so MJ deserves a better matching partner.

    MD and MS are the main point of this discussion. What is CBA doing ? I think more of hogging the rewards from what LD and co. brought to the table and doing nothing to lay out a contingency/succession plan when the decline of Chinese dominance becomes really apparent.
    Wish you're right about Lin Dan and Co. staying on for a couple of years but not so sure until the Rio Olympics - I think highly improbable for Lin Dan, Chen Jin and Cai Yun(which means Fu Haifeng will have to find a new partner).

    Fair enough,your observations about the XDs may be right, justifying a split for both Zhang Nan from Zhao Yunlei (overstretched playing XD and WD if she wants to do well in both?) and Ma Jin from Xu Chen (who's mostly brute force?).

    For MD, Cai Yun is retiring necessitating Fu to partner someone else if he wants to carry on which I think he should. What about Chung Jae Sung? He might be retiring in the near future,leaving Lee YD to look for a new partner. With these two top pairs supposedly out in time to come,I think Guo ZD/Chai Biao, Wei Hong/Ye Sheng, and Liu Xl/Qiu ZH, may possibly work their way up. Of course,the ROW are not standing still, worthy of mention are KOR and INA with promising pairs rising up.

    As for MS, both Lin Dan and Lee CW are likely to retire in the not too distant future (though I feel LCW should continue for much longer seeing as LD is off-peak and lacking in motivation). Among the rest,there seems to be no clear outstanding player to emerge at the moment but I must say I think quite highly of Chen Long's great potential, maybe not in the same class as the two aforementioned, who knows.

    MAS after LCW,DEN after PG, INA after Taufik and Simon, KOR after LHI, THA after Boonsak, JAP after Sho - all face similar problems, throwing the MS field quite open. I think the picture will become clearer in a year's time,esp after the Olympics. Presumably,all the respective coaches are looking and planning ahead in this regard.

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    Not sure why there's so much doom and gloom here. As far as I can see, all the other countries have succession problems. In my opinion, China has by far the best long term options when compared to the others.

    MS- DPY / WZM / CYK are the Chinese 4/5/6 ranked players. All of them were in a SS / GP gold finals recently. Which other countries 4/5/6 came close? Besides CL / CJ will still be around for ages. THW is also very promising.

    WS- Forget the 4 Wangs and LXR. HL / CXJ / LX are the Chinese 6/7/8. If they play the same number of tournaments as the ROW top players, they will all be in the top 10.

    MD- CB / GZD, however unreliable are the 2nd best 2nd pair in the world (behind YYS / KSH). China also has the best 3rd and 4th pairs in the world. Besides, I'm sure ZN will again be paired up with CB after the Olympics. They were easily the best young pair in the world before the the Olympic reshuffling process.

    WD- BYX/ZQX and XH/TJH are the 3rd and 4th best pair in the world. They will be around for the next 8-10 years.

    MXD- A bit unpredictable here. Chinese MXD pairings never last long. However they seem to be able to form new pairs with good results quickly. Eg TJM / TJH recently. They have enough MD / WD spare players to do that.

    Overall, China do have an embarrassment of riches in their squad. If I'm LYB, I wont be losing sleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    Whoever these Indonesia Chinese players are, wherever they originate from. CBA should focus on recruiting players from that particular province where the chinese immigrants left to settle in Indonesia.

    That's where the badminton genes come from I suppose.
    no need to worry. most indonesian chinese r from fujian which is where lin dan is from.

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    Regular Member huangkwokhau's Avatar
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    I think the better explanation is coming from one of chinese official 3 years ago that I met...he predicted that China would l have hard time to recruit the talents...it does not mean there is no talents but china wont have the luxuries they have years ago ...we can see Wang Xin was called back and now Han Li...

    That official said that many competition of the sports are in china who offer better lifes and financially are the problem ( I see it as a good problem for sport, not necessary in badminton).
    WTA ( Tennis) set up their office 6 years ago and now they did well by getting many tennis schools in china as well as chinese players in top 1000
    NBA did the same thing..Golf did the same thing now Soccer..even official said that Table Tennis still offers 4 to 5 times higher salary than Badminton..thats why LYB tried to have Badminton league to attract more players...( we should appreciate LYB to save badminton and make the statements that you can earn the living as a badminton player)
    he told me that there was a joke..if a Badminton players starts thinking buying a house, a table tennis player starts thinking what car to buy....

    Also please remember that good economy has the biggest contribution and many parents prefer their children do business rather than sport..I know that some of current badminton players are thinking to quit and pursue the business...

    We can see noe the trend that last 2 years not many juniors from china won the title...sometimes winning Junior championships may not guarantee that they will do better in senior level( this applies to all countries)
    Last edited by huangkwokhau; 07-09-2012 at 08:12 PM.

  13. #98
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    I agree with what you have said, but with a small change - that prediction of 3 years ago would have to go further back. My coach had mentioned this issue back in the mid 90's. Time really flies.

    The link is old, but it touches a bit what you said. Really insightful post.

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...666#post201666


    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    I think the better explanation is coming from one of chinese official 3 years ago that I met...he predicted that China would l have hard time to recruit the talents...it does not mean there is no talents but china wont have the luxuries they have years ago ...we can see Wang Xin was called back and now Han Li...

    That official said that many competition of the sports are in china who offer better lifes and financially are the problem ( I see it as a good problem for sport, not necessary in badminton).
    WTA ( Tennis) set up their office 6 years ago and now they did well by getting many tennis schools in china as well as chinese players in top 1000
    NBA did the same thing..Golf did the same thing now Soccer..even official said that Table Tennis still offers 4 to 5 times higher salary than Badminton..thats why LYB tried to have Badminton league to attract more players...( we should appreciate LYB to save badminton and make the statements that you can earn the living as a badminton player)
    he told me that there was a joke..if a Badminton players starts thinking buying a house, a table tennis player starts thinking what car to buy....

    Also please remember that good economy has the biggest contribution and many parents prefer their children do business rather than sport..I know that some of current badminton players are thinking to quit and pursue the business...

    We can see noe the trend that last 2 years not many juniors from china won the title...sometimes winning Junior championships may not guarantee that they will do better in senior level( this applies to all countries)

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    A bit OOT: And maybe... 20+ years from now, when things become too convenient and technologically sophisticated, mankind will be no longer interested in doing sport by themselves... And we may see this thing in real life, playing baddie instead of boxing...

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    It has been highlighted by at least two BCers that Chinese parents nowadays are less keen to encourage or let their children take up sports full-time preferring the commercial or business world as offering more attractive opportunities to make good in life, therefore indirectly contributing to a shrinking talent pool to tap from hence adversely affecting CHN's Golden Era in badminton in particular, and sports in general. Another related reason cited is the competition from other new or less favoured sports gaining in popularity vying for the same mass of players, most notably Tennis after the breakthrough historic victory by Li Na in winning the French Open Grand Slam last year.

    The above concern may appear worrying, I thought so too at the beginning. But as I've pointed out earlier, I believe the pace of urbanization that is ongoing and set to reach 70% by 2035 would in all likelihood lessen the gravity of the problem. How so? In my humble opinion, I've reason to doubt the Chinese government or the economy is able to create enough jobs for the teeming tens and hundreds of millions swelling the cities and the many new cities that would have to be created in due course.

    Thus, I'm of the view that for the next decade at least, there will still be a healthy,viable pool of sportspeople to serve the country's needs in her various sports to maintain her overall sports dominance in general and supremacy in the traditional sports in particular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    I think the better explanation is coming from one of chinese official 3 years ago that I met...he predicted that China would l have hard time to recruit the talents...it does not mean there is no talents but china wont have the luxuries they have years ago ...we can see Wang Xin was called back and now Han Li...

    That official said that many competition of the sports are in china who offer better lifes and financially are the problem ( I see it as a good problem for sport, not necessary in badminton).
    WTA ( Tennis) set up their office 6 years ago and now they did well by getting many tennis schools in china as well as chinese players in top 1000
    NBA did the same thing..Golf did the same thing now Soccer..even official said that Table Tennis still offers 4 to 5 times higher salary than Badminton..thats why LYB tried to have Badminton league to attract more players...( we should appreciate LYB to save badminton and make the statements that you can earn the living as a badminton player)
    he told me that there was a joke..if a Badminton players starts thinking buying a house, a table tennis player starts thinking what car to buy....

    Also please remember that good economy has the biggest contribution and many parents prefer their children do business rather than sport..I know that some of current badminton players are thinking to quit and pursue the business...

    We can see noe the trend that last 2 years not many juniors from china won the title...sometimes winning Junior championships may not guarantee that they will do better in senior level( this applies to all countries)
    You brought up a vaild point.Specifically,badminton as a professional sport in China will have to be financially attractive if not as lucrative as other sports in order to maintain its status. Good that Li Yongbo recognizes the problem and is doing his bit to resolve it.

    I'm sure CHN won't let any of their dominating sports to wane, for once that occurs it would be a downward spiral as happened in the other traditional badminton powerhouses. I trust China with her burgeoning economy and wealth of experience and depth of talents has what it takes to nip the problem in the bud as soon as they are aware of it. On this,I'm fairly optimistic.

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    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    As incomes rise and the middle-income group becomes more dominant in China, more disposable income can be channelled into promoting badminton as a favorite recreational pastime and entertainment outlet. The spinoff effect will attract more active participants as sponsors, equipment suppliers and badminton-related businesses. With greater mass support, prize monies will increase to a point when players will find it lucrative enough to turn professional. So badminton will not die but continue to attract the talented to entertain fans all around the world.

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