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  1. #86
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    I think he was being a bit defensive of other great tournaments he views are on the same level/tier like his home country SS for instance. I think his statement about all England was slightly out of line given it's historical value but at the same time I think he was making the point that he see's indo ss, dan ss etc just as important as all England (a view shared by LD(stated in interview(thekong reffered to) and probably many other asian players) which is fair enough since the game is bigger over there. I think he was showing level respect of all SS events not insulting them but he considers the WC, OG & AG as the majors. With regards to Taufik as a player, he was a child prodigy and burnt out faster than others his age not giving him enough years of motivation to do what others like LD did., Taufik at his best though is an all time great.

  2. #87
    Regular Member drquick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by repentedboy View Post
    Well we find out whether he gets into the Hall of Fame to see whose comment is garbage or not. I am just waiting to see what the Judges think after he retires.

    Btw, Poul Erik Hyor Larsen (Gold Medallist 1996), Alan Budikusuma (Gold Medallist 1992), Ji Xinpeng (Gold Medallist 2000) are not in the Hall of Fame.

    Also, Liem Swie King is in the Hall Of Fame; his achievement is the same as Lee Chong Wei; no WC and OG but one of the most successful players in the tournament circuit.

    Winning OG and WC doesnt guarantee a place in the Hall of Fame. You gotta do more than that.

    Lin Dan has done enough needless to say. Lee Chong Wei proved and tried so hard to win 42 titles overall. Peter Gade has stayed as long as he could and he still finish as semifinalists for his age.

    To me, that's more than enough :P. OG and WC are not everything. Dont be muddleheaded :P
    Taufik definetely overcome Poul Erik, Alan Budikusuma and Ji Xinpeng. Not just for all the titles and achievements he made but for what impact he brings in and off the court. Taufik -and Peter- has inspiring many to love this sport and they become role model for childrens and teens all over the world who start playing badminton. That's their legacy and I believe they're very much deserve to be included in the Hall of Fame. All the "four kings" should be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julianng View Post
    Taufik is the most naturally gifted badminton MS player in the world. Even LD relies heavily on his teammates to win titles and knockout bogey opponents that he seems to lose to.
    LD doesn't need to rely to any of his team mates to win the title, that's why he has very positive H2H records against TH. if LD wasn't better than TH, so why TH can't even win a single match against LD since Dec 2006 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by julianng View Post
    I would rate Taufik's achievements ( including 2 All England finals which he lost in 99 and '00 ) as the greatest in the modern era because his style of play is distinct to other players and he didn't copy anybody's movements or shots.
    TH only can win 17 titles (plus Brunei 1998) from 1998 - 2006, and LD from 2002 to 2006 only, can win 19 titles (exclude unofficial tournaments World Cup). why TH only can win 17 titles ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taufik_Hidayat

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lin_Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by julianng View Post
    Since 14 years ago, it was more like Taufik vs The Rest of the World because of all the CHN players and also some europeans who often had many things going their way like modern day faster shuttle cocks, 21 point system which didn't favor Taufik's fitness level, and also super series tournaments which didn't limit number of CHN players or players from one country playing in them as opposed to the old Grand Prixs.
    17 titles only from 8 - 9 years of careers. he was not that great.
    he never won a team title when he is INA MS 1 !


    Quote Originally Posted by julianng View Post
    Coupled with all this and he's not so perfect fitness levels, he still managed to produce the fastest smash and backhand smash in the world today.
    TH now was 31 y.o., while LCW was 30 y.o. not so many differences. but why LCW still can outplayed the world #3 and #4 (CL and CJ) that are 3 - 5 years younger and TH can't ?

    and when he is young, why he can't win more than 3 titles except 2004 where he won 2 int'l titles and 1 regional title (OG, INA, and ABC) ?


    Quote Originally Posted by julianng View Post
    I don't care if he only won the All England silver medal twice. He is the best in my mind. Too bad right now we have the CHN stereotype only that can do well in badminton. The previous days of the 15 point system are gone and with it it's talent in that era.
    from 2004, LD always looks down to All England. and several times, TH focus in AE only. but in the end, TH still can't win AE that are looks down by Lin Dan

  4. #89
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    Taufik has never established a dominant position ever since he started to showcase his skills on the international scene.

    I do not recall him winning titles consecutively when he was at his prime. As far as that is concerned, there were numerous players at time were able to compete and beat him eventhough he was at his best. Whether he lost because he doesn't not take it serious or he is pretending, that is just an excuse. A loss is a loss and that is reflected officially on your h2h record. In that respect, his h2h record with almost every top player was not very pleasant in the eyes.

    Truth is hard to accept and digest. Simple conclusion is he is not a great player and basically too much praises are heaped onto him just because he showed some backhand skill shots which made him a wow-factor. He is just one of the top players like the ones in the past. Wiranata, Arbi, Budikusuma, Larsen and you name it.

    But to put him in the same equation as Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei, now that is an overstatement because I do not think he has done enough in all aspects to fit into these two players' amazing criteria.

    Here are the facts about Taufik Hidayat:

    1) Four Olympic Outings: Only 2004 Athens he won gold. The rest of the appearances were early stage losses. To me that is not really an amazing run despite winning one gold. People could argue he won it just by luck since he did not come across any Chinese player in his path.

    2) He is indeed the most talented player and has made the headlines for reaching the All England final at the age of 19. Well so what ? Talent alone is not enough to be a great player if you do not put in any effort and exercise discipline to stay focus.

    3) As many fanatically claimed he is so "great' or even greater than Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei, let's do some number crunching: His so-called prime time managed to give him 25 career titles whereas Lin Dan/Lee Chong Wei regardless of their prime time managed to win 50/43 titles respectively.

    4) People accuse and claimed Lin Dan won so many titles because of home advantage. Well let's have a good look at Taufik's tournament campaigns. He has never won a single title in Denmark, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Switzerland , Germany and last but not least England. 90 percent, of his titles come from Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore (South East Asian region). Guess who relies more on home advantage right now ?

    5) Age? Another great excuse came up by fanatics to defend Taufik's losses each time. Well look, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan are not younger than him by a big margin but they still do better than him regardless on any tournament level. Sho Sasaki at the age of 30 could still beat Taufik in straight sets.

    6) Change in point system favour Lin Dan more than Taufik ? Well between 1999 to 2005, Taufik won 14 titles in total under the old system, whereas Lin Dan between 2002 till 2005 could win up to 14 titles as well.

    7) Badminton evolution: Change of scoring system, rapid development of racquet technology and more distributed badminton training philosophy have made a significant impact globally. More players from unknown corners of the world are able to challenge the powerhouses. Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei despite the growing competitiveness in badminton, they are still able to hold their ground against players who now are able to defend, smash and control the shuttles like the top players once were in the early 90s, back then many players do not have the privilege to develop their game. Taufik's recent poor performance in Super Series circuit clearly shows he is only as good as he gets when he trains. Talent does not make a difference in this scenario. When players nowadays conduct video analysis and rota training, they surely find a way to beat Taufik easily. Evidently from Chong Wei Feng, Viktor Axelsen and Marc Zwiebler.


    Truth is bitter but these fanatics who still live in the cave of denial are the patients who obviously need it.

  5. #90
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    Winning the Olympics + world championship + 2 times Asian games, and yet cannot even be equated with Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei? You must be kidding me."Four Olympic Outings: Only 2004 Athens he won gold" - So how many times does he need to win to be regarded as one of the greatest?
    Last edited by lung5488; 08-07-2012 at 06:31 PM.

  6. #91
    Regular Member *chance*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baizhen View Post
    Taufik has never established a dominant position ever since he started to showcase his skills on the international scene.

    I do not recall him winning titles consecutively when he was at his prime. As far as that is concerned, there were numerous players at time were able to compete and beat him eventhough he was at his best. Whether he lost because he doesn't not take it serious or he is pretending, that is just an excuse. A loss is a loss and that is reflected officially on your h2h record. In that respect, his h2h record with almost every top player was not very pleasant in the eyes.

    Truth is hard to accept and digest. Simple conclusion is he is not a great player and basically too much praises are heaped onto him just because he showed some backhand skill shots which made him a wow-factor. He is just one of the top players like the ones in the past. Wiranata, Arbi, Budikusuma, Larsen and you name it.

    But to put him in the same equation as Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei, now that is an overstatement because I do not think he has done enough in all aspects to fit into these two players' amazing criteria.

    Here are the facts about Taufik Hidayat:

    1) Four Olympic Outings: Only 2004 Athens he won gold. The rest of the appearances were early stage losses. To me that is not really an amazing run despite winning one gold. People could argue he won it just by luck since he did not come across any Chinese player in his path.

    2) He is indeed the most talented player and has made the headlines for reaching the All England final at the age of 19. Well so what ? Talent alone is not enough to be a great player if you do not put in any effort and exercise discipline to stay focus.

    3) As many fanatically claimed he is so "great' or even greater than Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei, let's do some number crunching: His so-called prime time managed to give him 25 career titles whereas Lin Dan/Lee Chong Wei regardless of their prime time managed to win 50/43 titles respectively.

    4) People accuse and claimed Lin Dan won so many titles because of home advantage. Well let's have a good look at Taufik's tournament campaigns. He has never won a single title in Denmark, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Switzerland , Germany and last but not least England. 90 percent, of his titles come from Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore (South East Asian region). Guess who relies more on home advantage right now ?

    5) Age? Another great excuse came up by fanatics to defend Taufik's losses each time. Well look, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan are not younger than him by a big margin but they still do better than him regardless on any tournament level. Sho Sasaki at the age of 30 could still beat Taufik in straight sets.

    6) Change in point system favour Lin Dan more than Taufik ? Well between 1999 to 2005, Taufik won 14 titles in total under the old system, whereas Lin Dan between 2002 till 2005 could win up to 14 titles as well.

    7) Badminton evolution: Change of scoring system, rapid development of racquet technology and more distributed badminton training philosophy have made a significant impact globally. More players from unknown corners of the world are able to challenge the powerhouses. Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei despite the growing competitiveness in badminton, they are still able to hold their ground against players who now are able to defend, smash and control the shuttles like the top players once were in the early 90s, back then many players do not have the privilege to develop their game. Taufik's recent poor performance in Super Series circuit clearly shows he is only as good as he gets when he trains. Talent does not make a difference in this scenario. When players nowadays conduct video analysis and rota training, they surely find a way to beat Taufik easily. Evidently from Chong Wei Feng, Viktor Axelsen and Marc Zwiebler.


    Truth is bitter but these fanatics who still live in the cave of denial are the patients who obviously need it.
    Haha this made me laugh and facepalm at the same time. Seriously.

  7. #92
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    He beat Lin Dan in 2006 at the Asian games...and also another reason he may not have as many titles is because the super series were introduced late in his career. At that point he was out of his prime and imo didn't care as much...

    Imo he became worse not so much because of age but because the conditions of his knees worsened (probably due to age) causing slower movement and to me it looked like he started training less and became less fit.

    Even when Morten Frost was talking about Taufik in Thomas Cup 2012 against Carl Baxter the only thing Morten Frost mentioned that was really lacking in Taufik's play was his fitness. Besides that his net play is awesome, his smashes are super strong (world record singles smash holder). His footwork is smooth and his powerful backhand allows him to get away sometimes with his lack of fitness. His flat game is also very nice and he has great defense; he's like one of the only singles players that can lifts or drives smashes due to his strong forearm. most other players just reply with a netshot

  8. #93
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    TH will not gonna be called one of 4 kings (including PG, LCW and LD) if he is not good enough
    that's how much Chinese people love TH. he is very entertaining
    PG with his trick shots and gentleman attitude
    LCW and LD with their supreme performance

    if you talked about TH, how about PG? PG does not achieve much compared to LCW and LD, so can we said he is not good?

    sure TH didn't dominate these days because of LCW and LD
    but you need to remember that TH married early on than the other 2
    once you married, you need to think about many things
    your wife, s** life, your kids, your FUTURE
    what should he do once he retired? it's not like Indonesian government can provide him money (like any other country which provide prize for their athletes)

    Susi Susanti and Alan Budikusuma made their own business, it is inevitable that Indonesian athlete needs to think further for their live
    we got no money from government
    many people said (including my parent who loves badminton to death) "don't become an athlete you will be really poor, the government doesn't care about you" (we have some news about it, few Indonesian best athletes are now in small house, and no one recognise them)

    TH decide to make his own business, TH arena (renting badminton court but primarily for coaching)
    he can't (even if he wants) focus on one thing anymore

    I agree he is not the best anymore, but I respect him. he is still good and beat so many players
    Last edited by Avenger; 08-07-2012 at 11:21 PM.

  9. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by lung5488 View Post
    Winning the Olympics + world championship + 2 times Asian games, and yet cannot even be equated with Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei? You must be kidding me."Four Olympic Outings: Only 2004 Athens he won gold" - So how many times does he need to win to be regarded as one of the greatest?
    Quote Originally Posted by lung5488 View Post
    Winning the Olympics + world championship + 2 times Asian games, and yet cannot even be equated with Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei? You must be kidding me."Four Olympic Outings: Only 2004 Athens he won gold" - So how many times does he need to win to be regarded as one of the greatest?
    He didn't justify his position and shortly after other players are still able to defeat him. To be one of the greatest, you need to do more than just winning few major titles. You need to show consistency, contribute to team events and perform regardless of where or who you are competing against.

    Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei have done enough reason being:

    1) They both can win so many tournaments regardless of age and they both can hold their ground against the current emerging players who have access to good technology and training programme. For them to be defeated, it's an uphill task.

    2) Lin Dan justify his Greatness by creating a record which I deemed as divine and nobody will ever match that record. Lee Chong Wei on the other hand, despite being a reigning number 1, it's true that he never wins WC, OG and AG. He still prove everyone that he is not there by luck and he still could consistently make it to the final of each of the major tournaments and settle with silver.

    3) Contribution-wise. It's just another plain excuse to assume Taufik cannot perform well in SS because it was introduced in the later stage in his career. Well the tournaments were introduced right after Peter Gade's era and by right Peter is not expected to do better than Taufik since he is so old (36). But it seems in the past 5 years Peter Gade is doing a lot better than Taufik in Super Series and his efforts are getting recognised for that. The same for Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan yet again as they are marginally younger than Taufik.

    Winning just the major titles is not enough. It takes more than just winning them to be considered a Great.

    Liem Swie King and Morten Frost never won a WC but I still rate them above Taufik because they are consistent and continuously to be successful in many tournaments and for a long time.

    He has not done enough to qualify in the Hall Of Fame. Period.

  10. #95
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    Ont of the 4 top MS of the last decade i will put;

    LD > TH > LCW > PG.

    Ask LCW if he would swap his 2 OLYMPIC silvers for 1 gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanY View Post
    Ont of the 4 top MS of the last decade i will put;

    LD > TH > LCW > PG.

    Ask LCW if he would swap his 2 OLYMPIC silvers for 1 gold.

    I do not think Lee Chong Wei and Malaysian fans would agree with that sequence after what we have seen from Lee Chong Wei and what we have not see from Taufik in the last 7 seven years.

    And present h2h record stands, Lee Chong Wei leads Taufik by 11-6.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baizhen View Post
    I do not think Lee Chong Wei and Malaysian fans would agree with that sequence after what we have seen from Lee Chong Wei and what we have not see from Taufik in the last 7 seven years.

    And present h2h record stands, Lee Chong Wei leads Taufik by 11-6.
    but i bet TH and the indonesian fans would.
    Just my opinion and based on the titles they won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    taufik is free to say what he want, but i maybe won't agree with him. if only AE title is not that important, why did LD so happy when he won it for the 1st time in 2004 (please CMIIW)? so does LCW , she was so happy, so expressive when he won it 1st time in 2010? you can see what happen when LCW win a SSP tournament, he is almost flat, not too much expression. but when come to win AE, i think we can see how happy he was. and it's not only LCW. it's also applied to many others players.
    AE maybe not important to taufik, just another SSP title, and some badminton fans might think like that also. but for most of the players, the AE still has it's own prestige, even with WC around every year.
    my question would be: if, only IF, taufik did manage to won 1 AE title, would he still saying the same statement?
    just IMO, peace.
    you wanna say that AE title is important for LD from his celebration !
    good!

    first big title is always special
    2004 AE held in March, while 2004 Thomas Cup held in May.
    LD win AE before he win Thomas Cup


    8 : 30
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHT3g6lftGQ

    6 : 39
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZVX4U7cJ-U


    watch it again, and you can tell me, which one is big title for LD


    and for the other information, you should read this :



    Super Dan bags it all


    THE world’s most celebrated men’s singles badminton player, Lin Dan of China, finally has it all.
    He fitted the final piece of the jigsaw in his immaculate career winnings by nailing the elusive Asian Games title in front of his adoring fans at the Tianhe Gymnasium yesterday.
    And “Super Dan” did it in super style, defeating world No. 1 Lee Chong Wei 21-13, 15-21, 21-10 in the final.



    And then he celebrated the victory in the only way he knew – letting out a loud cry, punching the air repeatedly and taking off his shirt to the deafening roars of the home crowd.

    And he did a little more yesterday after the usual salute. He threw his shoes and sweat-soaked shirt to the delirious crowd.

    With the triumph in the Guangzhou Asiad, the 27-year-old Olympic and three-time world champion has won all the major titles on offer in world badminton.

    As for Chong Wei, his losing streak against Lin Dan on China soil continued and his hopes of becoming the first Malaysian men’s singles champion in 40 years at the Asian Games went up in smoke.



    A thrilled Lin Dan, however, took his time to answer all the questions thrown at him.
    “I have reached my target.
    “I have won all the major titles that a player can win. This is really a wonderful moment for me,” he said.
    Of all the titles that I have won, the 2004 Thomas Cup Finals, however, will hold a special spot for me. It was the beginning of my rise as a player. And the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games was an important one too.”

    Although buoyed by his exploits, Lin Dan gave due credit to Chong Wei’s fighting spirit yesterday.
    “This is my best Asian Games final. There was pressure on both of us. We played well even though it was so tough. Honestly, I was the lucky one to win.

    “I give my due respect to Chong Wei. He really fought very hard today.”

    Lin Dan showed he was much superior in the first game with his stronger attack taking him to an 11-6 lead.

    Chong Wei came back from the game break with his brilliant deceptive shots to take three consecutive points but Lin Dan replied with a flurry of smashes to extend his lead to 15-9.

    The Malaysian tried to break Lin Dan’s momentum but, in his haste, made too many mistakes to hand the game to his pumped up rival.

    Chong Wei upped the tempo in the second game as Lin Dan appeared to take his foot off the pedal to allow the Malaysian to force a decider.
    Lin Dan was devastating in the rubber game, leading 11-4 at the game break before romping home for the gold medal.


    http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.a...sec=asiangames



    aha, he didn't mention the mickey mouse title All England, eventhough he won AE before won Thomas Cup !


    his statement was the same with his celebration !

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    As far as I m concerned, Taufik is the greatest. He has won the big titles early, without assists and all outside his homeground. He s the most naturally gifted badminton MS, wowing the crowds at an early age. He has the courage to continue playing all over the world, (after having won all that matters to him) knowing he s likely to lose to a youngster, so they can brag that they have defeated the most talented Taufik.
    and when big events held in his homeground, what's happened to him ?


    2004 Thomas Cup : lost to Bao Chunlai

    2008 Thomas cup : lost to Tanongsak and Lee Hyun Ill

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    Well for the consistency bit Taufik did remain in the top 10 up to 2011 so there is consistency right there...

    Peter Gade doesn't really win titles. He just makes it to the QF or above in a lot tournament and ends up losing and that gives him enough points to retain his ranking. Besides AE Peter Gade has no major titles. Not taking anything away from him seeing as he is an old man but I don't believe he is as great as the other 3 kings

    I would also rate TH above LCW altho that is just my imo...

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    It's because Taufik is way better looking than Lin Dan man.... and also his shots forehand, backhand , net etc. all seem more natural and entertaining compared to the former.

    No offence to LD, but I think this criteria counts as well towards qualifying one to be considered as a great player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by *chance* View Post
    Haha this made me laugh and facepalm at the same time. Seriously.
    yup..agree with you..it makes me laugh...beating LCW and Lindan in route of winning the WC 2005 (both in straight games OLD SCORING SYSTEM) and then beat BCL, LCW and Lin Dan again in route of WINNING the Asian Games 2006 (i think BCL stretched him to 3 sets in the QF - NEW SCORING SYSTEM) and even Taufik admitted at that time, that the new scoring system doesnt suit his style of play..yet he still delivered - if you think all of these titles were flukes...then i have nothing to say..

    Oh yeah..i forgot..on the top of that - he won 2 Thomas Cup and AN OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL

    cmon man be real with how you categorized great players and the facts (no offence to LCW and PG as i admired them as well)...have either LCW or PG won World Championship, Olympic Gold and Thomas Cup??

    i admitted LD is a legend, possibly the most completed single player in the history of badminton....and i never criticize that point...but cmon man..leave Taufik alone..as he is definetely one of the MS and badminton player in the histroy of badminton too....

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