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View Poll Results: who's to be blamed for the match throwing?

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  • The players are at fault for throw matches

    38 17.67%
  • BWF is to blame for implementing group structure

    77 35.81%
  • no one / other are to be blamed.

    7 3.26%
  • both players and BWF are to be blamed

    93 43.26%
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  1. #35
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    IMHO, we should have another option in the poll:

    coaches/association

    Even to punish the players, it'd better to send voilation tickets/citations to the players, coaches and the associations. Each charged them $10,000. If anyone fails to pay the fine, then disqualify her.

  2. #36
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    Thanks, Kwun for putting the poll. I would say that the blame is not just BWF, but the IOC as well. The reduced number of players qualified for Olympics and the increase number of matches that the players play.

    In a way, the round robin system

  3. #37
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2cents View Post
    IMHO, we should have another option in the poll:

    coaches/association

    Even to punish the players, it'd better to send voilation tickets/citations to the players, coaches and the associations. Each charged them $10,000. If anyone fails to pay the fine, then disqualify her.
    you can't change the ballot paper half way thro!
    what do think BC is? Kangaroo court?

    actually i voted the third one, other to be blamed. i.e. coaches and their bosses, and their bosses' bosses.

    I don't blame the players at all. do you really think they have a choice at all if that was their coaches' order?

  4. #38
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    I blame the tournament referee for not taking decisive action by disqualifying the pairs in the first match. This would have sent a strong message to the pairs in the second match and also set the tone for further events.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanY View Post
    you can't change the ballot paper half way thro!
    what do think BC is? Kangaroo court?

    actually i voted the third one, other to be blamed. i.e. coaches and their bosses, and their bosses' bosses.

    I don't blame the players at all. do you really think they have a choice at all if that was their coaches' order?
    I agree with you. Very few players actually have the balls and the courage of conviction to refuse such orders. Although, it has happened e.g. in table-tennis...

    But in 2cents' defence, it was just his opinion/suggestion! He didn't quite demand a change in the poll to elicit such a strong response from you...

  6. #40
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    I voted for the last: both playes and BWF; but with the caveat: including coaches and NAs.

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanY View Post
    I don't blame the players at all. do you really think they have a choice at all if that was their coaches' order?
    How do you feel about the Nazi guards at the prison camps who cooked millions of Jews rather than risk their own necks. By your logic a lot of innocent Germans have been wrongly convicted. Sorry pal just because you may feel a decision is too difficult doesn't give you a free pass when it comes time to face the consequences of your choices.

    And yes I know that there is a big difference between a prison camp guard and a national team badminton player. But, then again we aren't talking about jailing or executing these players are we?

    I share the argument that it is likely the 'bosses' who are responsible so then by that logic the whole team should be DQ'd.

  8. #42
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    I'll blame mostly on the coaches, whom most likely ordered it. They should be fired for disgrace to their countries. Obviously, on the players themselves for carrying out the shameful acts.

  9. #43
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    How do you feel about the Nazi guards at the prison camps who cooked millions of Jews rather than risk their own necks. By your logic a lot of innocent Germans have been wrongly convicted. Sorry pal just because you may feel a decision is too difficult doesn't give you a free pass when it comes time to face the consequences of your choices.

    And yes I know that there is a big difference between a prison camp guard and a national team badminton player. But, then again we aren't talking about jailing or executing these players are we?

    I share the argument that it is likely the 'bosses' who are responsible so then by that logic the whole team should be DQ'd.
    There is a study conducted called the Milgram experiment that talks about this very thing and the majority would do what AlanY stated so not that unbelievable.

  10. #44
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tranqq View Post
    you're taking the word of of context. If a player while in a match decides to lose 4 points in a row in order to catch their breath because they feel like they have a better chance of winning if they do so. Would you call that cheating? They are most certainly being deceitful and are trying to influence their opponent to think they have mentally given up and the match will be easy. It's not that black and white. Just because you can use an english dictionary doesn't mean you know what you're talking about.
    If they are given a yellow/black card and found guilty by bwf/referee for it then yes i find your example to definitely be considered cheating if not then no. Again sorry you don't like the word cheating

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    There is a study conducted called the Milgram experiment that talks about this very thing and the majority would do what AlanY stated so not that unbelievable.
    I'm actually aware of the Milgram experiment. But, the point isn't whether people would make such a choice is believable or unbelievable. The question is whether based on such a study you believe the fact that the majority would do so makes it ok and a free pass on any consequences should be given?

  12. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    How do you feel about the Nazi guards at the prison camps who cooked millions of Jews rather than risk their own necks. By your logic a lot of innocent Germans have been wrongly convicted. Sorry pal just because you may feel a decision is too difficult doesn't give you a free pass when it comes time to face the consequences of your choices.

    And yes I know that there is a big difference between a prison camp guard and a national team badminton player. But, then again we aren't talking about jailing or executing these players are we?

    I share the argument that it is likely the 'bosses' who are responsible so then by that logic the whole team should be DQ'd.
    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    There is a study conducted called the Milgram experiment that talks about this very thing and the majority would do what AlanY stated so not that unbelievable.
    Reminds me of Kate Winslet in The Reader... there is an instinctive knowledge of being in something wrong, but where are the options under those circumstances? Put another way, are you willing to lose everything that means anything to you (no matter how ephemeral), just to protect a single truth?

  13. #47
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    I'm actually aware of the Milgram experiment. But, the point isn't whether people would make such a choice is believable or unbelievable. The question is whether based on such a study you believe the fact that the majority would do so makes it ok and a free pass on any consequences should be given?
    It brings it into question yes. Although I think consequences need to be paid just whom?
    Last edited by craigandy; 08-01-2012 at 04:17 PM.

  14. #48
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan888 View Post
    I'll blame mostly on the coaches, whom most likely ordered it. They should be fired for disgrace to their countries. Obviously, on the players themselves for carrying out the shameful acts.
    what if the players got presented with 2 simple choices either do as you told or you already played your last match.
    of course, there may be some just too eager to comply as well.
    So, just banned them all?

  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanY View Post
    what if the players got presented with 2 simple choices either do as you told or you already played your last match.
    of course, there may be some just too eager to comply as well.
    So, just banned them all?
    Yes ban them all. Sooner or later they would rebel against being put in such a position and either the BWF would evolve to better look after the player's interest over and above those of the national associations or the players themselves would form their own group to look after their interests.

  16. #50
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    facts:
    1. players did bring badminton into disrepute
    2. tactical play incentivised by round-robin structure.
    3. round-robin format rarely used in badminton tournament play.
    4. known issues with round robin format in uber/thomas cups
    5. tactical play often used when player takes a respite when trailing in 2nd game after winning 1st, evidenced by error-strewn play and resulting in crowd booing.
    6. throwing games just takes this to the next level.
    7. difficulty in telling when game is thrown, e.g. china-china matches or japan-taiwan wd which was also suspicious, but not conclusive.

    reaction to disqualification:
    1. can be considered unfair to players when format implicitly allowed throwing games. players have never experienced round-robin format for individual events
    2. unfair to WD pairs that qualified on merit, but had to fight in quarter-finals instead of progressing directly to semi-finals. i guess BWF had to arrange some matches for people that had tickets for tonight's quarter-finals.
    3. taiwan and denmark WD unlucky to not play for bronze, as they are stronger than Russia/Canada that will be likely playing for bronze, if not hastily patched up draw.
    4. unfair to audience as they now get russia-rsa and canada-aus WD quarter-finals, which i doubt anybody would pay to watch. (Sidenote: anyone want WD bronze match ticket?)

    alternatives to disqualification:
    1. fine 4 pairs and associations heavily, ie. $1 million. this will also point out that responsibility is also shared by association, not just players
    2. as it is, LYB and the korean coaches can escape sanction by denying responsibility.
    3. use fines to develop badminton in smaller nations.
    4. punishing associations and players will more directly change badminton culture. I remember conversation with chinese players at worlds: they were incentivised by monetary reward for winning, same for coaches. So heavy monetary fines will influence their incentives.

    possible solutions for the future:
    1. double elimination to allow smaller nations more matches, but still strong incentive for winning.
    2. randomised or better performance based draws if round-robin, like archery, fencing.
    performance metric can be how quickly you crush opponents. this will minimize time-wasting among other things and make players give 100%.
    3. apply heavy punitive fines for match throwing and unsporting behaviour.

    PS.
    Many people blame china for match-fixing, and they are the leading offender. However, other countries also do it. The difference is that China are so strong that they have more opportunity to fix matches and take advantage of the rules. After seeing recent events, I think others would have done the same given the opportunities.

    PPS.
    Anyone want WD bronze match ticket? Having seen Russia and Canada WD, I am not convinced they are stronger than club MD, which is pretty sad.

  17. #51
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlanY View Post
    what if the players got presented with 2 simple choices either do as you told or you already played your last match.
    of course, there may be some just too eager to comply as well.
    So, just banned them all?
    Yes, ban them all. Why not?

    For the players:
    If you cannot show integrity, you deserve to live with the consequences. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. When you swim with the sharks, you are either a shark or shark-food. You have a choice: get out of the water. Your pride or your integrity.

    For the coaches:
    Everything the players do on court is your responsibility. You are answerable. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. You make the decisions and the strategies, you are answerable for them. You have a choice: show integrity even in the face of intimidation. If you do as was done unto you, you will face the same consequences. Your pride or your integrity.

    All of them chose pride, ego, greed, arrogance, believing they could to some extent get away with it. They players paid the price for the decisions made by their coaches. Now it's time for the coaches to go down.

    It's up to the BWF to make sure the ones who ordered the play don't escape.

    And right now, it's up to the BWF to make the long overdue transition into the professional world of sports, as a tough, professional association run by tough professionals with integrity: a tough association we would all be proud of. Now, that would be a change!

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