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  1. #18
    Regular Member M3Series's Avatar
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    Whenever I started to drive while we were in defending stance, in my mind, I should start to cover at the front and my partner will start to cover at the back. Is this correct or am I just making a big mistake here? Because most of the time, we lost the point in this situation. So I wanna know what is exactly should I and my partner do. Watching pros do it still can't give me a concrete answer because it was like split second and I din even know how.

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    Regular Member StefanDO's Avatar
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    Unless you are not only a master in performing drives but also in *returning* drives, I'd recommend you to only perform them if your opponents are off balance / if there's quite a big uncovered area on the opponents' side. From my experience, I'd say that many players use drives way too often / in dangerous situations / even if their drives are weak. They play drives when drops would have been the better choice, especially if they go for drives because they couldn't get a good downward-angle for smashes. Many of these players think it's always right to go to attacking formation after having performed a drive, but if it's a weak drive, opponents can quickly return it as a drive to either side of your court, causing trouble if you're in attacking formation then. In conclusion, I'd try to attack (and maintain attack) by means of smashes or drops, and try to reduce drives to situations in which opponents would *really* have trouble returning the drives.

  3. #20
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    The trigger to go to an attacking formation is when your opponents hit a shot to your partner, not after your side has played a shot. For example, if the opposition lift to your partner, you take up an attacking position to support their smash. If they then clear, you go back to a defensive formation. If they clear to your partner again, you take up an attacking position, etc. Consider a rally where 2 players play down-the-line clears to one another. Their partners will alternate between cross-court defensive and channel-attack positions.

    As with any shot, drives must be good and used at the right time. A good drive goes fast & flat, passes just over the tape and lands in your opponents' back tramlines. If it has been hit upwards (because the shuttle was too far below the tape) or is intercepted by the opposition in the fore/mid court, then you hand the initiative to your opponents.

    If your opponents aren't covering their fore-court, a drop is the right call. If they're not covering their mid and rear-court, go for a drive. If they're covering both well, you may have to lift.

    As the best response to a drive is a drive, then I would take a pseudo-defensive formation (i.e. like a defensive formation, but possibly both of you slightly closer to where you've hit the shuttle). This helps to cover fore and mid-court, down-the-line and cross & pressures your opposition into a lift.

    In amateur matches (especially mixed doubles) driving rallies are fairly common. A drop is too slow for either side & neither wants to lift, so successive drives result. With the pros, any slight elevation (i.e. one side is driving slightly downward, the other upwards) quickly develops into a lift and the standard attack/defense situation occurs.

  4. #21
    Regular Member M3Series's Avatar
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    Me and my partner having a hard time against 2 tall players. What would you suggest we do to get the attacking position? ( kill the shuttle ).

    1. Flat game
    2. Deep and high clear ( eventually kills the shuttle when we had a chance )
    3. Keep smashing ( we are up against a decent pair, just smashing won't kill the shuttle sometimes )

    P/S : don't answer by saying 'it depends'. What I'm looking for is pros and cons of what I suggest and what you may suggest. The choices is mine but still, you guys have the experience more than I do. Thanks in advance

  5. #22
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    Presuming that they are high and deep enough, lifting and/or clearing is a safe option. It's difficult (though not impossible) to smash from the very back of the court. Against weak opposition, you may get a half-court clear in response, handing you a premium attacking opportunity. However, you are handing all initiative to the opposition. Especially if you are playing good opposition, you may not get another chance that rally. Once you reach an intermediate standard, you only lift and/or clear when there aren't any viable alternatives or to (sparingly) add a bit of variation. Once you reach an advanced standard, you only lift and/or clear when there aren't any viable alternatives.

    If the shuttle is about tape-height, drives are a good way to keep some pressure on the opposition. Best formation when you drive is similar to a defensive formation, though (hopefully) both of you are slightly closer to the net. Getting on top of a 'drive-rally' will force your opposition to either lift or to attempt a risky (i.e. net-kill-able) drop. If you're under pressure, then choosing to drive risks being net-killed. Therefore, drive if you can, lift if you can't, drop if your opposition is inept.

    In general, blocks and net shots are only viable if your opposition has left sufficient space in their fore-court. A well executed net/block gets you into an attacking position. A poor net/block risk a net kill or a drive.

    If the shuttle is significantly above net height, you already have an attacking platform. You need to balance retaining the attack with pressuring for an error. A good smash (i.e. fast AND steep) combined with good positioning by the smasher's partner will achieve both. Fast but high smashes risk being counter-driven, putting you in trouble and forcing a lift. Slow smashes risk being net-killed. If your opposition are decent, don't be surprised if it takes multiple smashes to put the point away. The downside to repeatedly smashing is that it is more tiring for you than your opposition. If they're positioned well, then they don't have to move much. Putting some variation in will make your smashes more effective. If your smashes are good enough to keep your opposition sufficiently away from the net, drop shots are the best variation. If not, then the occasional clear is necessary to force your opposition to move and hopefully force an error.

    Given that your opposition are tall and decent, I would:
    1) Lift/clear only when there isn't a viable alternative
    2) Drive when you can, recognise when you can't
    3) Smash when you can, with the occasional variation (drop if you can/clear if you can't)
    4) Look out for opportunities to net or block, but don't expect them to come up too often against decent opposition
    Last edited by Line & Length; 12-19-2012 at 07:48 AM. Reason: Typo

  6. #23
    Regular Member M3Series's Avatar
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    As much as I'm grateful of your suggestions, none of it is what I'm looking for. At my current level, all the points that you just mentioned is already on my head and I'm doing it pretty well on-court.

    While thinking what should I do, maybe I will try to play more flat game and try to aim on their shoulder. Most of the points we get was triggered by attacking their shoulder and they return it weak, and we smash to kill the bird.

    So I'm thinking maybe any of you out there may have some suggestions on what else did you do when you are up against a tall and decent double players.

    When I say tall, I meant 6 feet or 190+cm

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    Sorry that you didn't find my previous post helpful. It's difficult for advice to be specific without video etc.

    Taller players have further to stoop to low shots, so try the occasional net or drop as variation. They may also tend to lean over for shots rather than move properly, so the occasional cross-court drive may catch them out. However, both tactics are risky and should be used sparingly.

    As they are of a decent standard, they will limit the options that you and your partner have. You will have to play consistently well and be patient to get a well-deserved result off them.

  8. #25
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    Very tall players tend generally to be less agile and their speed of movement around the court is generally slower. However they can compensate with better reach and larger steps so it would make the difference less noticeable in doubles.

    The tactics that are often used against taller players are centred around their reduced ability to shift their body into position rapidly. For example, by turning them. This is particularly effective playing tall players in singles but it will still help in doubles. Try hitting the shuttle so that they are forced to turn their body a lot, alternating left and right. But beware if youíre playing against a left and right handed pairing, you could be unknowingly hitting it to their forehands all the time!

    Another good shot is the disguised sliced dropshot. Tall players donít like to couch down low whilst lunging for a shot and tend to prefer using their reach rather than scrambling to get to a shot. So whilst the slice slows down the shot, giving them a little more time to react, it creates a tighter drop and so is great against those that donít move very fast around the court.

    When smashing, try mixing up your usual smashes with a few near/at the body, more specifically, ones around the racquet arm areas which requires them to shift their body slightly out of the way to play a forehand.

    When defending against tall players, you donít want to stand too far back, unless they are really strong. I often find that the smashes from tall players arenít exceptionally powerful but are obviously very steep (in contrast, playing against short players, their smashes tend to be very high and long of the baseline). This sounds obvious, but in my experience, it is the tall player at the net that you need to beware of as they do more of the damage than the tall player at the back.

    In terms of serving, there isnít a great deal you can do other than making sure you donít make it too easy for them. Because of their reach, low serves will be easy for them as are flicks. Some people have said that aiming for the racquet shoulder is a good tactic, but I donít think this is specific to tall players.

    So in essence, try combining a few shots to turning them with some tight lunging shots at the net and hopefully you will force an error from them.

    Hope this helps and good luck!
    Last edited by R20190; 12-20-2012 at 09:17 AM.

  9. #26
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    at a certain level, general advice is not possible! it really depends on the strengths/weaknesses of that particular opponent. there are tall people that are good at attacks, others in defense, others at drive play, others at netplay. it really depends!

    so if you say you're at an advanced level, general advice is just randomly generating some blind guesses, some will be correct, others less so. and you won't learn anything...
    a video might help.

  10. #27
    Regular Member M3Series's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    Very tall players tend generally to be less agile and their speed of movement around the court is generally slower. However they can compensate with better reach and larger steps so it would make the difference less noticeable in doubles.

    The tactics that are often used against taller players are centred around their reduced ability to shift their body into position rapidly. For example, by turning them. This is particularly effective playing tall players in singles but it will still help in doubles. Try hitting the shuttle so that they are forced to turn their body a lot, alternating left and right. But beware if you’re playing against a left and right handed pairing, you could be unknowingly hitting it to their forehands all the time!

    Another good shot is the disguised sliced dropshot. Tall players don’t like to couch down low whilst lunging for a shot and tend to prefer using their reach rather than scrambling to get to a shot. So whilst the slice slows down the shot, giving them a little more time to react, it creates a tighter drop and so is great against those that don’t move very fast around the court.

    When smashing, try mixing up your usual smashes with a few near/at the body, more specifically, ones around the racquet arm areas which requires them to shift their body slightly out of the way to play a forehand.

    When defending against tall players, you don’t want to stand too far back, unless they are really strong. I often find that the smashes from tall players aren’t exceptionally powerful but are obviously very steep (in contrast, playing against short players, their smashes tend to be very high and long of the baseline). This sounds obvious, but in my experience, it is the tall player at the net that you need to beware of as they do more of the damage than the tall player at the back.

    In terms of serving, there isn’t a great deal you can do other than making sure you don’t make it too easy for them. Because of their reach, low serves will be easy for them as are flicks. Some people have said that aiming for the racquet shoulder is a good tactic, but I don’t think this is specific to tall players.

    So in essence, try combining a few shots to turning them with some tight lunging shots at the net and hopefully you will force an error from them.

    Hope this helps and good luck!
    This. I've also found that they aren't that mobile so my partner told me to make sure we 'move' them all the time. It was brilliant game! . We've lost it but still, we able to make them wanting to play with us again in few more games.

    Also on serving, me and my partner already had a strong understanding on how to deal with such good receiver. So it doesn't give us much problem.

    There's another problem comes out when the tall partners start playing a counter-attacking game. They feed us and we smash in but it cost us a lot. By 10 points, we are tired enough to play full-offensive game. Eventhough they had a 8 points deficit, it does not occur to them a sweat to catching us up.

    Thanks for the advices and I kinda amused by your suggestion on shifting their body rapidly. I think maybe we did not overlooked in it. Will try it out next week.

    By the way, aiming their shoulder really gives us so much opening. Until they start to realized that

  11. #28
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    Interesting discussion. Thought I would add some comments.

    Firstly, and I know its obvious as others have mentioned sliced drops, but a good old deceptive stop drop (ala Jung Jae Sung) is VERY effective against tall players, especially if you have been hitting them with some good body smashes (racket hip, racket shoulder etc as discussed by those above). The reason for this is that taller players are often a little more lazy with their footwork. The tend to "set themselves" more in defence, knowing that they can reach everything. Players that set themselves in defence are much much slower to set off for a drop shot that lands before the service line - hence the stop drop Of course, this tactic works against anyone who sets themselves in defence, but I find taller players are more prone to it. It can be very funny. After the stop drop, aim the next smash at their chest/face: lets see what they do with that. Careful not to hit out!

    Secondly, when serving to them, do not overlook the flick serve to their forehand - it doesn't even need to be low. For most players, the movement to the deep forehand corner is very difficult, especially when the shuttle goes past you - most players fail to turn their hips sufficiently to move effectively in that direction and stay much too "square" which would work fine round the head. The movement to the forehand rear corner is especially difficult if you have a big frame to move around.

    Good luck with your coming games!

  12. #29
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    Don't forget the first 3 shots in double usually determine the outcome of the point. You can be an average player, but well trained/coached on the first 3 shots, you can win double against much better players who are not trained on the serves and serves returns.

  13. #30
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    How about a partner that is basically non - existent at the net? There are some players after years of playing is basically non-existent at the net. He can hit the shuttle into the net for a easy kill. And every time he is at the net, the shuttle will NEVER get lifted. it is either tapped or put away. Can be quite frustrating at times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincook View Post
    Don't forget the first 3 shots in double usually determine the outcome of the point. You can be an average player, but well trained/coached on the first 3 shots, you can win double against much better players who are not trained on the serves and serves returns.
    Best example is Boe/Mo... it is amazing watching their first 3 shots when they play set patterns that maximizes their left/right combination .

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jun Wei View Post
    How about a partner that is basically non - existent at the net? There are some players after years of playing is basically non-existent at the net. He can hit the shuttle into the net for a easy kill. And every time he is at the net, the shuttle will NEVER get lifted. it is either tapped or put away. Can be quite frustrating at times.
    Yes, and this also points out to the importance of controlling the net, whether in doubles or singles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    Best example is Boe/Mo... it is amazing watching their first 3 shots when they play set patterns that maximizes their left/right combination .
    some of my danish friends told me, that the danish badminton junior players exercise these first 3 shots all the time! they do this stuff over and over again, until they automatically play the right shots.
    this is what makes these guys hard to play, they're so good at these first shots and are therefore always in a nicely setup situation...

    and yes: controlling the net is crucial! you can't win (mens) doubles without controlling the net.

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    Very tall players tend generally to be less agile and their speed of movement around the court is generally slower. However they can compensate with better reach and larger steps so it would make the difference less noticeable in doubles.

    The tactics that are often used against taller players are centred around their reduced ability to shift their body into position rapidly. For example, by turning them. This is particularly effective playing tall players in singles but it will still help in doubles. Try hitting the shuttle so that they are forced to turn their body a lot, alternating left and right. But beware if you’re playing against a left and right handed pairing, you could be unknowingly hitting it to their forehands all the time!

    Another good shot is the disguised sliced dropshot. Tall players don’t like to couch down low whilst lunging for a shot and tend to prefer using their reach rather than scrambling to get to a shot. So whilst the slice slows down the shot, giving them a little more time to react, it creates a tighter drop and so is great against those that don’t move very fast around the court.

    When smashing, try mixing up your usual smashes with a few near/at the body, more specifically, ones around the racquet arm areas which requires them to shift their body slightly out of the way to play a forehand.

    When defending against tall players, you don’t want to stand too far back, unless they are really strong. I often find that the smashes from tall players aren’t exceptionally powerful but are obviously very steep (in contrast, playing against short players, their smashes tend to be very high and long of the baseline). This sounds obvious, but in my experience, it is the tall player at the net that you need to beware of as they do more of the damage than the tall player at the back.

    In terms of serving, there isn’t a great deal you can do other than making sure you don’t make it too easy for them. Because of their reach, low serves will be easy for them as are flicks. Some people have said that aiming for the racquet shoulder is a good tactic, but I don’t think this is specific to tall players.

    So in essence, try combining a few shots to turning them with some tight lunging shots at the net and hopefully you will force an error from them.

    Hope this helps and good luck!
    This is quite an interesting post. i agree with the first point. Tall players do tend be slower when shifting the weights and turning. However, i don't agree that their smashes are less powerful. i have encountered a tall player who has a powerful smash and good reach as you have said. he's a tough opponent to play with. the only weakness i found is that he tends to be slow when turning to take shuttles. also, with tall players, since the smashes are steep, it's important to improve on smash returns. Weak and slightly low smash returns give them opportunity to downright kill the shuttle.

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