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    Question Carbonex 20 and 21 "ANOMALY" - please help !

    Cab20sp (Graphite) and Cab21sp (High Modulus Graphite)

    Here is an ANOMALY (well, at least as I see it) that I cannot figure out.
    In Malaysia, Cab20sp is retailed (RRP) at RM409.90 while Cab21sp is RRP at RM379.90.

    Normally, the higher the Cab no. the more expensive due to "BETTER MATERIAL" used as in Cab 50 and Cab 35 vis a vis Cab 20 ...

    So, why is Cab 21 "cheaper" than Cab20, when it is SUPPOSED to be having a BETTER MATERIAL as in HIGH MODULUS GRAPHITE over plain old graphite of Cab20 ?

    Reason I asked is that I am about to buy a replacement Cab20 when my friend said "Why pay more when Cab20 is BETTER and CHEAPER? " ... completely stopped and postponed my purchase until I can figure this one out ...

    Perhaps, a better informed Carbonex user or someone who know can enlighten me before I splash some serious cash on a Cab20 or Cab21!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxout View Post
    Cab20sp (Graphite) and Cab21sp (High Modulus Graphite)

    ... when my friend said "Why pay more when Cab21 is BETTER and CHEAPER? " ... completely stopped and postponed my purchase until I can figure this one out ...
    My bad mistake ... corrected here.

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    BTW, both Cab20sp(neon orange) and Cab21sp (red) that I am refering to here are the new models that are found in current 2012 catalogue.

    I am just surprised that Cab20sp is MORE EXPENSIVE but cannot figure out why?

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    RRP is not the same as retailed at so is it RRP or the retail price?

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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    RRP is not the same as retailed at so is it RRP or the retail price?
    Both ... it is 30% of RRP ... first time, I came across a supposingly "superior" Yonex racquet in the same series costing LESS than another !!

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    Isnt the cab 20 a 'classic' and has a longer history compared to the cab 21? Personally I would 'value' it higher than the cab21. Do not agree at all that the cab21 is more superior. Am sure there are more cab20 lovers than cab21

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    They may just have ordered more CAB21s and therefore gotten a bulk discount. Also maybe the better graphite is also cheaper to manufacture?

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    referring to yonex catalogue, there are 2 version, JP Domestic market catalogue and Global market catalogue.

    CAB20 is still being sold in JP Domestic market and Global market, whilst CAB21 is only being sold in Global market.

    Both products are being put at the centre of Yonex's racket chart, in which it can be assumed as the benchmark of all-round product.

    Nevertheless, I am of the opinion that the reason Yonex is still marketing these products is merely based on a strong emotional feeling to preserve the continuation of these products due to their status as legendary products since the 80s

    CMIIW

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    The Arcsaber 8DX is also cheaper than Arcsaber 7 despite having supposedly better material. I think the price of some products is higher than what's considered normal because of higher demands.

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    In Hong Kong I see it is the other way around, at least instore price (Cab20/21). Also according to Sports Horizon the RRP is the same?

    Can you even compare the Carbonex line to today's product naming anyway

    Don't think ARC7 RRP is more expensive in Europe either than 8DX ...

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    I think it's a simple case of supply & demand in your local area. Materials don't necessarily dictate price, I'm sure there's not much difference in manufacturing cost between Cab20 & 21 - or any other racquet.

    I'm a bit cynical when it comes to fancy materials in badminton racquets. Manufacturers love to use exotic material like titanium in their marketing blurb - but the impact (& how much of this fancy material actually goes into it) is questionable at best.

    AFAIK, all racquets use graphite (from which carbon is made of) as its core material - excluding the toy range obviously - those could be made from anything.

    They've hit the ceiling with Cab20. That's why they had to stop making it - so they can sell others . Like clawhammers said - it's the benchmark (because it's so good).

    That said, my main racquet is AT800D . I'm better with Cab20 but I figure that I need to get used to newer racquets because one day I won't be able to find a Cab.

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    Thanks everyone for your inputs, make good sense to me - looks like I am going to pay the "classic" added premium for a Cab20 !!

    Best part of all was what my wife said when I told her that I am planning to get a replacement Cab20. She asked, " Why do you still want that old racquet with that old tech ? Go for something newer and more advanced tech! Always playing with that old racquet, no progress ! Not adventurous "

    With a straight face , I replied, LOOK IN THE MIRROR and tell me IF I should go and play with a newer, younger and more "VOLtric" (read: VOLUPTOUS) model or still stick with my old, trusted and beloved CARBONEX 20 .... when she got my meaning, she just STUCK OUT A TONGUE ... end of discussion !!
    Last edited by maxout; 10-07-2012 at 07:38 PM.

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    There's a few things I think needs to be clarified here.

    The new Cab 20 and 21 are not the "classics" that the original ones once were. They don't play the same, feel the same or look the same. They are also probably not good enough for today's modern badminton game.

    I am a Carbonex fanatic, and have built up "a few" in my collection over the years, so I'm not being biased towards modern isometric racquets. There is no hierarchy as such at the top of the cab family. The original 20 and 21s played differently, the main difference being the shaft notably thinner on the original 21. But both are relatively flexible by todays standards. Both were equal in terms of calibre and were very popular with professionals in their time. The 21 being used more for doubles, whilst the 20 more for singles although this was not a strict trend.

    I don't agree with saying that "it's a simple case of supply & demand in your local area. Materials don't necessarily dictate price...", materials do dictate price - as determined by the manufacturer. I can't say about other manufacturers but, with Yonex, you do generally get what you pay for. Although the racquet may not necessarily suit your playing style, it doesn't mean the technology and material quality is not there. Take titanium for example, I recall reading an article that someone posted a while ago when they sawed through their already broken racquet which showed the titanium strands inside.

    Prices are usually fairly steady amongst local retailers, they are well aware you can get the racquets elsewhere for the same price or cheaper so there is no incentive to bump up the price. Some shops will put a premium on racquets that are in limited supply such as signature racquets but this is the same for all retailers and is not necessarily driven by demand.

    However the point I am making is that the cost of R&D in material development, cost of making the material(s) all contribute to the cost of the racquet. Whilst the differences are not huge, they do require time and effort to develop, refine and test.

    For information - Graphite is made from the element Carbon. Not the other way round. Graphite like diamond is an allotrope of carbon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    The new Cab 20 and 21 are not the "classics" that the original ones once were. They don't play the same, feel the same or look the same. They are also probably not good enough for today's modern badminton game.
    Never said the new ones are the exactly the same - they're just realistic replacements that you can get today. Let's face it: the originals are near-impossible to find & even if you do find one, it's probably not for sale. Do let me know otherwise because I'm keen to get it!

    Not sure what "modern badminton game" is but whether they're good enough or not depends on the shuttler more than anything else. At the end of the day, a racquet's just one part of the equation.

    As for materials vs price - I'm not disputing the existence of it in a racquet. I'm questioning - because I don't know the answer - the real benefits of using such material & the quantity used to affect price (does that titanium strand really cost $30 more?). And for carbon, I was referring to graphite carbon fiber - that's actually used to make racquets - not carbon carbon (which is too geeky for badminton forum).

    I still believe it's supply & demand (those who don't - we should agree to disagree). In parts of the world where badminton's niche market - it's more expensive (otherwise buying online isn't an attractive option).

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    In the context of the Malaysian Yonex market, for the Cab21sp to be at a LOWER price than Cab20sp - given the "better material" used in Cab21sp is in itself an "ANOMALY" when one refered to the entire range of Yonex products available here.

    The Yonex racquets in Malaysia which are made with "added" materials/features are consistently priced around 10-20% higher than the preceeding one in a very systematic step-ladder pricing structure with a big step jump when the racquet shifts from Made in Taiwan to Made in Japan models, almost 300% jump !! (ref: Carbonex 8000Ti (RRP RM119.90) jumps into Cab20sp (RM409.90) but Cab21s (Rm379.90) ? )

    Both Cab20 and Cab21 are Made in Japan and I had seen and shop-tested (swings) both racquets and seriously, I will be hard-pressed to tell them apart from the physical inspection I have done until I string and play with them.

    I posted and enquired as it was so unexpected for me to notice this "anomaly" and left me puzzled . I thought I know my Yonex pretty well, until now !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by raistian View Post
    Never said the new ones are the exactly the same - they're just realistic replacements that you can get today. Let's face it: the originals are near-impossible to find & even if you do find one, it's probably not for sale. Do let me know otherwise because I'm keen to get it!

    Not sure what "modern badminton game" is but whether they're good enough or not depends on the shuttler more than anything else. At the end of the day, a racquet's just one part of the equation.

    As for materials vs price - I'm not disputing the existence of it in a racquet. I'm questioning - because I don't know the answer - the real benefits of using such material & the quantity used to affect price (does that titanium strand really cost $30 more?). And for carbon, I was referring to graphite carbon fiber - that's actually used to make racquets - not carbon carbon (which is too geeky for badminton forum).

    I still believe it's supply & demand (those who don't - we should agree to disagree). In parts of the world where badminton's niche market - it's more expensive (otherwise buying online isn't an attractive option).
    I can see myself having a long and interesting chat over a coffee with someone like you!

    I have several original Cab 20s and Cab 21s which I used to play with regularly and must say I preferred the 21 over the 20. I found the 21 a faster racquet to play with and as I play doubles more it suited me better.

    Let me explain what I mean by "modern badminton game".

    I started playing badminton about 22 years ago and lots have changed since then. Badminton then was a slower, less explosive game. Professionals would tend to rely more on agility, placement to the four corners of the opponents court and to "stretch" their opponent, rather than playing midcourt winners, and often had rallies twice as long as today's game.

    Technically, it has also changed a lot, in the days of the Cab20/21, professionals would have their racquets strung in the low 20's (pounds) in terms of tension, with some using natural gut. Today's pros have racquets strung 50%-75% tighter with better racquet materials and using only synthetic strings. The use of stiffer materials together with isometric head and longer shaft has given players more power as well as control. Yes, you can say that a racquet is only one part of the equation, but given it has changed so much over the years it is in fact a very significant part of that equation now.

    The choice of shots and tactics have also changed with far more smashing and shorter rallies, notwithstanding the fact that the "new" scoring system has had an effect on this too.

    In terms of racquet manufacturing cost, sometimes it is not just about the cost of the materials in the racquet. It is also the cost of development, the process of integrating it into the racquet as well as testing. It may seem trivial to you, but putting in the titanium strands may alter the conventional manufacturing process - it's not just about the cost of the material. The result may not be a huge difference as felt by the player, but that doesn't mean the cost of R&D/manufacturing/marketing can be neglected.

    As for the cost of the Cab 20 and 21. No doubt the Cab 20 has cult status but the Cab 21 is by no means ordinary (hence both have gold/black butts). I would suspect that given the status of the 20 and the number of professionals that used it in its day, yonex has set a premium price on it.

    And as for the carbon/graphite matter, don't worry about it. I'm just CF mad as I've worked with carbon fibre before and so was just correcting you on it - not really relevant to the discussion...

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    To me, the 'claimed' material technology is marketing gimmick. the physical specs only relevant.

    weight, balance, stiffness and frame cross section. dont really give a d*&# on the fullerene, xt carbon, kevlar, titanium..........all the 'bs'.

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