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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    Also, on the subject of ZJH vs LD. I don't think it is possible to compare the two as it's always going to be one sided.

    If they were able to play each other at their respective 'primes' LD would still win, no question. The difference in training regimes, training facilities, quality of coaching, knowledge, tactics, racquet technology, competition, money etc all are in LD's favour. Not to mention that the game of badminton has changed a lot in terms of pace, attacking rate, scoring system etc.

    So to my mind, ZJH would never stand a chance against LD.

    However. If we can hypothetically imagine that ZJH was born in LD's generation (and minus his illness), that would be a different story imho. If he was competing at today's higher standard, with todays better training, racquet technology etc. I'm sure his talent would stand out even more. But one thing that LD would probably still have an edge over ZJH is his mental strength and consistency. I think LD surpasses everyone in this area.

    I was talking to an older colleague of mine who is also badminton enthusiast. He mentioned how he's also a fan of ZJH but said that there were rumours that he had fixed matches, deliberately losing for money which tarnished his career. I never knew about this before, but apparently it was common knowledge?
    I was enjoying reading and liking your two posts until I came to the 'rumours'.

    First of all,I've never heard of such rumours 20 to 30 years ago and until now.

    Second,since they were never substantiated nor widely insinuated,why bother to repeat them. To me,they can only be totally baseless,malicious and utterly meaningless.

    Third,it's a well-known fact that he was afflicted with a debilitating disease,pneumonia, that threatened to derail his career just when it had just taken off which resulted in his inconsistency, brilliant one time and almost unrecognisable the next. Actually the doctor had pronounced him unfit to play competitive sport and it was by his sheer willpower and grit determination that he could last that long in the international circuit albeit with more than the normal ups and downs. It was like being handicapped with a nagging injury that refused to go away. It helped to explain why he had to resort to deceptive play much more than speed and brute force to win most of the time - the ZJH who overpowered Morten Frost in 1985 All-England and the ZJH after his illness were almost two different players.

    Fourth,why did he have to sell chicken rice for a living after his retirement by running a stall,mind you not restaurant,in an ordinary hawker center or food court? What happened to all his 'money'? He's not known to be a gambler, wastrel or suchlike,never.

    Lastly, wouldn't he have much more to gain winning and winning than losing? Just look at Lin Dan today. In Zhao JH's time,he might not have gained as much materially but relative to his peers he would most certainly be much better off than he is now. Enough said.

    In greatness, Lin Dan and Zhao Jianhua are in a class of their own.
    Last edited by Justin L; 11-13-2012 at 10:46 AM.

  2. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    I was enjoying reading and liking your two posts until I came to the 'rumours'.

    First of all,I've never heard of such rumours 20 to 30 years ago and until now.

    Second,since they were never substantiated nor widely insinuated,why bother to repeat them. To me,they can only be totally baseless,malicious and utterly meaningless.

    Third,it's a well-known fact that he was afflicted with a debilitating disease,pneumonia, that threatened to derail his career just when it had just taken off which resulted in his inconsistency, brilliant one time and almost unrecognisable the next. Actually the doctor had pronounced him unfit to play competitive sport and it was by his sheer willpower and grit determination that he could last that long in the international circuit albeit with more than the normal ups and downs. It was like being handicapped with a nagging injury that refused to go away. It helped to explain why he had to resort to deceptive play much more than speed and brute force to win most of the time - the ZJH who overpowered Morten Frost in 1985 All-England and the ZJH after his illness were almost two different players.

    Fourth,why did he have to sell chicken rice for a living after his retirement by running a stall,mind you not restaurant,in an ordinary hawker center or food court? What happened to all his 'money'? He's not known to be a gambler, wastrel or suchlike,never.

    Lastly, wouldn't he have much more to gain winning and winning than losing? Just look at Lin Dan today. In Zhao JH's time,he might not have gained as much materially but relative to his peers he would most certainly be much better off than he is now. Enough said.

    In greatness, Lin Dan and Zhao Jianhua are in a class of their own.
    I think you took that completely the wrong way.

    You probably gathered from my posts that ZJH was my no.1 childhood idol so it's not something I was happy to hear about him either - even if it is a false accusation. However just because I am a big fan of his, does not mean that I should only be interested in knowing the good things about him and ignoring the bad.

    I mentioned it because it was something I never knew about and was shocked when my work colleague (in his mid-50's now) told me and implied it was common knowledge. Ok, I've no idea whether it was true or not, but some BCers may have heard about it. And given this thread is about the history of ZJH, for all I know, it may have been something that other people were already aware of but I was the only one who didn't.

    I say you've taken it the wrong way because you seem to be stacking up an argument when there isn't one.

    When the great John Higgins (snooker player) was caught match fixing none of his fans would believe it until the footage was shown. If match-fixing in the 2012 OG was not hyped up by the media and players banned, no one would have bat an eyelid because it happened so much in international badminton before.

    Whether he did or he didn't, to me, doesn't make any bit of difference to the way I see him as one of the greatest badminton players who ever lived. So it doesn't bother me one bit if he did.

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    I think you took that completely the wrong way.

    You probably gathered from my posts that ZJH was my no.1 childhood idol so it's not something I was happy to hear about him either - even if it is a false accusation. However just because I am a big fan of his, does not mean that I should only be interested in knowing the good things about him and ignoring the bad.

    I mentioned it because it was something I never knew about and was shocked when my work colleague (in his mid-50's now) told me and implied it was common knowledge. Ok, I've no idea whether it was true or not, but some BCers may have heard about it. And given this thread is about the history of ZJH, for all I know, it may have been something that other people were already aware of but I was the only one who didn't.

    I say you've taken it the wrong way because you seem to be stacking up an argument when there isn't one.

    When the great John Higgins (snooker player) was caught match fixing none of his fans would believe it until the footage was shown. If match-fixing in the 2012 OG was not hyped up by the media and players banned, no one would have bat an eyelid because it happened so much in international badminton before.

    Whether he did or he didn't, to me, doesn't make any bit of difference to the way I see him as one of the greatest badminton players who ever lived. So it doesn't bother me one bit if he did.
    Point taken,understood. To be exact,my argument wasn't targeted at you, only at the 'rumours'. Me too, I eschew blind faith or loyalty.

  4. #38
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    For now, this is the link which I have uploaded myself.

    http://youtu.be/h4k8E5CkvHk

    For ardent fans for Zhao, I advise you to download it before I remove it due to suspected copyright infringement that might have originated from an individual in china.

    Enjoy.
    Last edited by Pakito; 11-13-2012 at 01:25 PM.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakito View Post
    For now, this is the link which I have uploaded myself.

    http://youtu.be/h4k8E5CkvHk

    For ardent fans for Zhao, I advise you to download it before I remove it due to suspected copyright infringement that might have originated from an individual in china.

    Enjoy.
    It says the video has been removed because it is too long.

  6. #40
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    Will be rectified soon, do not wish to burden you with internet technical mumbo jumbo. Stay tuned.

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    Again in the same video, it was shown that a 16-year-old Zhao Jianhua, as pointed out by Pakito, first started out as a men's doubles player and won his first MD title at the China National Games. For this he was spotted by Hou Jiachang who took him under his wings.

    Within a year at 17, in his maiden international appearance at the Scottish Open, he playing MS sensationally beat Morten Frost in the final to win his very first international title. That victory according to his coach Hou was all the more amazing in that Morten Frost at that time once held an unbroken run of 200 match wins. In the match, Morten Frost appeared unfamiliar with Zhao's playing style and was often flat-footed or wrong-footed by the latter and stunned into capitulation.

    Next at 19 years of age came the historic All-England 1985 victory that made headlines in the badminton world and outside. Within three months in the run-up to the AE , Zhao catapulted into fame, first trouncing the INA Liem Swie King, followed by overcoming his established senior compatriot Han Jian and finally scoring that momentous triumph in the AE final beating once again Morten Frost for the third time in as many encounters (not sure what was their second encounter).

    Then just when he was reaching the summit of his career, he was hit by a severe illness that threatened to not only to end his career but also his life if not properly treated as I've described earlier. (That's all from me on that video, the last part on the Barcelona '92 OG, let others talk about it).
    Are you sure it was Scottish Open? I thought it was the Swedish Open.

  8. #42
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    Ok guys, it's up and running, finally.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXKr6o0FidA&feature=youtu.be



  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pakito View Post
    Done. Can't thank you enough,Pakito. I chose the MP4-360p version, a bit grainy but good enough;if only they filmed it in different angles,sorry, expecting too much.

    Let us clamour for a Lin Dan - Zhao Jianhua Exhibition Match!

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    Are you sure it was Scottish Open? I thought it was the Swedish Open.
    OK,I watched the video again to double-check, the presenter said '苏格兰' i.e. Scotland/Scottish. If you're right,that means the presenter made a mistake.

  11. #45
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    The dive retrieval was used in top flight badminton in late 80s by that tormentor named Foo Kok Keong who actually incorporated diving into his training.

    Zhao, never was he able to beat FOO.

  12. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    OK,I watched the video again to double-check, the presenter said '苏格兰' i.e. Scotland/Scottish. If you're right,that means the presenter made a mistake.
    I am wrong, just looked put the info in wikipedia - wonder why I always thought it was swedish, my bad

  13. #47
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    On the technical point of view let me put some context to the badminton world of pre Zhao and Post Zhao scenario. Older Baddies hereplease give input.

    I have watched countless of videos on youtube of top men singles in the 70s.I've watch Rudy vs Punch, Rudy vs Liem. Liem vs Prakash. Liem vs Morten. Liemvs Misbun. Liem vs Han Jian.

    I've made one observation. It is the way pre Zhao singles players hold the racket before they hit the shuttle.

    All the above players at the back of the Court when hitting a high lob theracket head always at the back of their head and the elbow placed in a V shape.The hit is done in full force of the rotating shoulder ,back swing and movementof the wrist forward and full follow up.

    The trajectory of the shuttle resembles a parabolic curve. All guidebooksillustrate such technique.

    Deception:

    Rudy often used the half forward slice to bring the shuttle down faster (knownas the half smash). Prakash imitated that style and used it very often in his rally style play to add some deception.

    Punch gunalan often uses the wrist to turn the shuttle from left to right or from right to left after executing a smash .

    Misbun would use a shooting lob technique where trajectory of the shuttle isflat going to the back line (what is term punch clear now ) and also the chopfrom right to left.

    Smash

    Liem with strong leg muscles jumps high to smash in very steep manner. however he only did so after a few rallies when the opponent was out of position .


    Zhao's technique:

    Observe Zhao's holding of the racket before hitting. He always made sure theface of the racket faces the shuttle and he hold the head of the racket highwith his elbow in line with his fore head before he hit the shuttle.

    His lobs are 80 % shooting lobs instead of parabolic lobs.

    He does not hit with full swing. The technique allowedhim to slice, cut, lob, smash or soft block without changing the angle of theracket face until upon the touch of the shuttle. He can change the direction ofthe shuttle without letting his opponent know.

    The other thing is the speed of the shuttle. The way hehit the shuttle the velocity of the shuttle is higher even when he was playingthe lob.

    It is not that Zhao’ game has not been seen before inother top players but not all the tricks seen in one player.

    Zhao also have very good speed and foot work to reach theshuttle to play this type of game . This added with the lethal smashing.

    I watch the semifinal between Liem and Zhao AE 85. Liem even though past his prime was stillformidable so formidable in fact that he beat Yang Yang in the quarter finals.

    Liem was made to run all over the Court. I believe Liemwas just not used to this type of game where the shuttle was moving so fast in all directions and in such time that he could not guess before hand where the shuttle was going.

    Morten was able to do better in the finals because Mortenhad played Zhao before and lost.

    Zhao’s influence and legacy.

    The racket holding technique was seen in one other mensingle player, Dong Jiong which is another deceptive player.

    Susi Susanti can be seen using the same racket holdingstyle as Zhao but i do not know whether that was imitating Zhao or inout from the THING coaching inIndonesia.

    Today,Zhao racket holding technique can only be seen in Women singles and doubles and mostof the time by non Chinese players.

    I do not know why top men singles do not use his technique.

    Lee ChongWei is the only top player who has an image of Zhao’s strategy but not his racket holding technique.
    None of the current top Chinese singles players resemble Zhao in technique nor strategy which is surprising.

    After Zhao came into the scene . The speed of the gamewent several notches higher. Morten Frost was able to adjust his game to thespeed .
    Other s like Ardy and Foo Kok keong relied on retrievalof every shuttle thrown at them.
    As for me, after playing amateur badminton for so long , I now use Zhao racket technique. Maybethe technique works well with slender person body type like I am and I find Icould hit the shuttle faster execute a drop better then the other techniques seen in guidebooks. Other body types may not find his technique useful.
    Last edited by sonnymak; 11-22-2012 at 03:02 AM.

  14. #48
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    I mentioned earlier that when I was a kid I looked at ZJH for inspiration and often copied his style. One of the things I noticed at a young age and tried to mimic was the way he prepared his upper body for a shot. I noted the racquet face was always facing the shuttle and that he didn’t pronate in the way that modern players do but still managed to achieve decent power and accuracy. Having studied and tried to copy his style, I also do not pronate much and play a flatter stroke instead.

    One shot that ZJH had that I have yet to see in another player is the disguised rear court drop shot. A very smooth and delicate stroke with a bit of slice that produced an incredibly steep drop, tight to the net with disguise. It was a shot that caught out a lot of the taller western players of his time.

    I’m not surprised that Zhao’s technique and strategy has not been adopted in modern top class badminton, the game has evolved and is probably no longer seen as effective playing against fast and aggressive players these days. However having said that, I have noticed in recent years that the likes of LD have adopted a more mellow style of play, often choosing to drop and clear over an outright winning smash which was once the choice when given the opportunity.

    So who knows, there may be a return to the old school badminton strategies.

  15. #49
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    You can see Peter Gade's overhead stroke modelled on Zhao's stroke.

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    ZJH is one of a kind you will never find player, full of surprises stroke and none of the current players can come close to that, even LD or LCW

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    .....

    So who knows, there may be a return to the old school badminton strategies.
    Hear, hear ....

    I stopped watching and playing tennis when SHEER BRUTE FORCE took over the game from the days of McEnroe, Borg, Natasae and Connors ... they were the last before the GRUNTERS ...

    Thankfully badminton can still hold out against the BRUTES ... for how long ... ? I curse the day when IBF (BWF) changed the scoring system which affected the nature and style of play by promoting sheer speed and aggression over stroke play.

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