User Tag List

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 35 to 51 of 72
  1. #35
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Outside the box
    Posts
    13,298
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    If the owners of the gyms are never around, I have to assume they are either running a very well managed facility or the demand for courts is so high, that easy profit can be made.

    The good things are property prices are relatively cheap now. Location is important in that the facility should be easy to find (GPS is not 100% certain).

    30mins driving one way I think is quite reasonable. Mind you, I have been to places where it takes an hour one way but that's me being a badminton addict.

    I really think experience of the whole picture counts from the needs of casual players up to to tournament players up to coaches. That way you can understand the dfferent needs and the facility can appeal to different market segments. I have got started in running a club (not the facility) and the difference in perspective between myself and some of the other pre-existing committee is huge. They have an ambitious aim to progress and attract good players. But the mainly socially orientated committee don't understand what brings people in despite having access to a great location. So the club has been stagnant. I am on the same wavelength as the coaches but a lot of the committee are not.

    I guess why mainly ex-pros/coaches open gyms are a) it's the one thing they know really well, b) they understand underneath the surface how to fill it up quickly and minimise the potential losses. It's easier for them to tap into badminton addicts and find backers. If you were a financial backer, who would you give your money to? Would it be somebody who hasn't got much of a track history?

    If you have a large warehouse, opening 10courts initially an then adding more is inefficient - if you already have the space for 16, but only open 10 courts, then you are wasting rental. Later you might have the headaches of trying to expand the flooring, lighting whilst keeping the other courts open. Nobody would like to breath in solvent fumes and extra dust while they play.

    I think that's why the badminton gyms are so large in SF/Bay area. A larger facility can also spread out the staff costs. 2 people can run an 8 court facility, and they can also equally run a 12 court facility (plus the availability of large warehouses).

    One thing many of us cannot assess is the demand. Are people complaining they cannot book courts? Are they complaining of the distance they have to travel to get to courts? The fact that large gyms are still busy in an economic downturn is very encouraging.

  2. #36
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Outside the box
    Posts
    13,298
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    This thread looks like my initial plan/dream

    And now a reality for the 7th years whoops! time flies .... LOL

    We are still running the same 39 courts, the biggest badminton centre in Malaysia !

    Occupancy rate at prime time 7pm onwards is at 100% everyday!

    Beside these courts we have 6 futsal or mini soccer field.

    Trick of the trade is do it yourself full time.

    Know badminton inside out, i mean must know how to run tournament,

    knowledge of coaching, sports injury etc etc anything related to baddy.

    BadmintonCentral here provide a hell lot of infor if you do a search.
    What are your opening times?

    Probably the killer are the non-peak hours, fixed running costs and empty courts. At least in Malaysia, heating costs are low! And people don't mind playing in the heat.

  3. #37
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    aberdeen
    Posts
    643
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    divinefavor, please ask yourself this question. There are a ton of badminton addicts would love to own a club which they can play whenever they want, share badminton stories with other addicts etc while making money at the same time. What a perfect picture. Now back to reality, why are 99.9999999% of badminton addicts not owning a club? May be you are the chosen one. If we do a survey re who would like to owning a club but dare not to because of too risky, I believe the writing is on the wall. As I mentioned earlier, I admire your determination. Again good luck if you do opening one. Don't forget to keep us informed cause everyone here in this forum love to wish you well.

  4. #38
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Posts
    4,718
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    What are your opening times?Probably the killer are the non-peak hours, fixed running costs and empty courts. At least in Malaysia, heating costs are low! And people don't mind playing in the heat.
    Its 9am until 11pm everyday accept friday 9am until 12am!

    Peak hours are from 5pm onwards on weekdays

    and we have cooling cost here

    Guess what could that be? Lol

  5. #39
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    came from the SAR
    Posts
    3,839
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    divinefavor, why don't you partner with a coach (or two)?

  6. #40
    Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Outside the box
    Posts
    13,298
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pBmMalaysia View Post
    Its 9am until 11pm everyday accept friday 9am until 12am!

    Peak hours are from 5pm onwards on weekdays

    and we have cooling cost here

    Guess what could that be? Lol
    The cost of keeping 100plus cold and for sale to hot and sweaty players

  7. #41
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Posts
    4,718
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    The cost of keeping 100plus cold and for sale to hot and sweaty players
    Right! Also to power sprinklers with rain water to cool zinc roof

  8. #42
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    New York, US
    Posts
    10,283
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Good to see someone at least having a plan to do so. However, by my own understanding, the OP needs to be conservatitive, unless s/he has a lot of $$$ to burn, especially at the beginning stage.

    1. Sure, you do not need to be a top level player to own a gym. Same as you do not have to be an iron chef to open a cafe. However, for small business, you need to save everything you need, and be "the expert" not only save cost, but give you more "quality control", and give you the freedom to offer more products (service in badminton term).

    2. It is very hard to balance the book, if you start any business in metro area. The high cost of living (or running business) such as rent, tax, labor, insurance, fine (if not lucky), utility bill, etc can be troublesome. So, if a gym is just opened for court renting or open walk-in, you cannot survive. You need additonal services, such as coaching, pro-shop (product sales and stringing, etc), tournament, etc to balance the book. Therefore, if yourself is a top level player / stringer, you see where your skill kick in. If you have to hire others to do so, not only it's a $$$ issue, you can be the hostage.

    3. It's always good to be a volunteer helper for an exisiting club, to learn the skill (daily management, social skill and event organization skill) and to know the community, before diving in blindly. You need ppl to trust you (not necessarily say top notch playing skill), in order for them to give up their comfort zone, and hand in their hard earned $$$ to you. It is very easy to make a lot of friends in a gym to have fun together. It is a totally different story, when you try to convience them to hand you a $1000 check on a consistant base.

    4. You would rather want to be over-prepared, and realize that the reality is not as bad (hardly the case), rather than under estimate the situation, give up all your $$$, all your energy/effort, all your career and family, only to face the harsh reality.

    I used to take a lot of things for granted, and tend to complain this and that in gym (or event), as soon as something does not come to me in a perfect way. After I start to volunteer to help organize some local tournament, I have a lot of more respect for the ppl doing this on a regular base. Dealing with human being, with limited time and budget, is a lot of harder than dealing with a pre-programmed machine. Also, you are always on the losing end, even if your customers (players) broke certain rule. You cannot just throw the books at them, because they have nothing to lose, but you have your entire career on the line...

  9. #43
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Santa Clara, California, United States
    Posts
    35,920
    Mentioned
    54 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    there are a few factors to opening a gym.

    - location. do you have a location in mind?
    - financials. the most important one, as you are a business, you won't stay afloat unless you have a sound financial plan. after you have a location in mind, do you have an estimate cost of the running costs? including (as you mentioned) cost of the land, the construction; or if you decide to go rent, the rental rate. after you get the cost of running the facility, next is how are you going to generate income? with around US$8 dropin, and then some membership that runs around $300-400/year these days (to stay competitive). do you think that will sustain your busines?

    after the run the numbers, you will then realize that this will be tough. unless you provide a facility that is way more excellent than the usual suspect of Bintang/BBC, etc, you will need to stay competitive with the pricing and to be honest, a $8 drop in for 2-3 hours of entertainment is really dirt cheap and doesn't bode well for club owners. at best, you will be break-even with dropin/membership. your only way to sustain is to pad it up with 2 other things.

    coaching: coach is profitable, with most group classes going at $30-40/2 hours for a group of 8. that is great income. however, you also need to share profit with the coach. the other factor is where are you going to find coaches? coaches are in high demand and club fights for them constantly.

    equipment: you need to run a shop, and not just a shop like most clubs, you need to run a very efficient online shop. in person sale is too little, most people don't buy from the shops, you need to expand out to online in order to survive. some of the clubs here are more successful than others in this respect.

    snack/beverage: a smaller portion of the income, but potentially will generate some profit. everyone needs to drink/snack during a game, and the more attractive they are, the more likely you will get good business.

    do your do diligence on the costs / revenue involved, run the numbers, and come tell us if that still sound like a good idea.

    for now though, it seems that the market is quite saturated. hard to find any location in which there is a good demand and a good supply of land/warehouses to start a badminton gym.

  10. #44
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,474
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    If you are thinking of renting. You better figure out what the rent will be and what the maximum rent it can be raised the next year. You'd be dead in the water if the landlord raises the rent 100%. I've heard of crooked landlords (in Vancouver) doing something similar like that. Or purposely making it difficult for the owner to run the business...making them get out of the contract early (on a multi-year lease) and paying a penalty.

  11. #45
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Santa Clara, California, United States
    Posts
    35,920
    Mentioned
    54 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by divinefavor View Post
    because none of badminton gyms are for sale. i'd gladly take one if it's up for sale, and make things easier.
    you just missed the chance as RBA was just sold last month to Synergy.

    and the turnover rate also points to how hard it is to run a club. other than Bintang/BBC/CBA/Affinity, all other gyms have already turned over, at least once!

  12. #46
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Santa Clara, California, United States
    Posts
    35,920
    Mentioned
    54 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    badminton is very space inefficient business. a badminton court is 20' x 44'. give it a bit more around the side you are talking about at least 25' x 50' of space you have to provide. and that's for the entertainment of 4 people on court, and they can potentially stay there for a few hours.

    the other end of the spectrum, a movie theater. they packed u in there like sardines, each maybe get a few sqft of space, and then they have multiple showings per evening. they do have to pay for the movies, but they make up for it from $12 each round in a very densely packed space, and then they charge ridiculous price for the beverages also. imagine charging $5 for a drink in a badminton gym, that will never fly.

    the major problem for running a badminton gym in the bay area is that the entry pricing has been too competitively low. you will never be able to find such prices for other sports clubs. $300 is probably what people pay per month on a tennis club or other health club (i am not sure, just guessing).

    this makes it really hard for someone small to enter the business. esp when the market is already so saturated.

  13. #47
    New Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Austin, Texas, United States
    Posts
    1
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I am glad I came across this thread.
    I am a similar situation, thinking of starting a badminton club. The influx of people in this city who will play badminton is really high, and there are only 2 (maybe 3) places in the entire metro that have badminton facilities - and I am reading of high wait times and less opportunity for the less advanced players to play.

    I have never owned a business, so am just getting a feel of it from forums right now.

  14. #48
    Regular Member pBmMalaysia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kuching, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Posts
    4,718
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    this makes it really hard for someone small to enter the business. esp when the market is already so saturated.
    Yes, this is not a small investment business.

    You need land and economy of scale you can't build a small gym,

    it's really expensive and car park is one hell of space killer!

    I don't know about US new building requirements

    but i know in Malaysia all those baddy courts are zinc roof, steel column

    and very little concrete wall and we don't get a permanent OP or occupation permit.

    Mostly its temporary and renewal every five years

    so here bank won't lend you money based on your 'property'

    but you could get some money if your land is charged

  15. #49
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    309
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Key thing is to specialize. There's a local badminton place that has tried to do everything under one roof, I.e., restaurant, ping pong, etc and I think it's a mistake.Seeking out PARTNERS to fill those roles makes more sense. For instance, share the rent with a bubble tea or Vietnamese coffee joint. That would be a perfect fit.Maybe even get a pro shop in there.

  16. #50
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    309
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    badminton is very space inefficient business. a badminton court is 20' x 44'. give it a bit more around the side you are talking about at least 25' x 50' of space you have to provide. and that's for the entertainment of 4 people on court, and they can potentially stay there for a few hours.the other end of the spectrum, a movie theater. they packed u in there like sardines, each maybe get a few sqft of space, and then they have multiple showings per evening. they do have to pay for the movies, but they make up for it from $12 each round in a very densely packed space, and then they charge ridiculous price for the beverages also. imagine charging $5 for a drink in a badminton gym, that will never fly.the major problem for running a badminton gym in the bay area is that the entry pricing has been too competitively low. you will never be able to find such prices for other sports clubs. $300 is probably what people pay per month on a tennis club or other health club (i am not sure, just guessing).this makes it really hard for someone small to enter the business. esp when the market is already so saturated.
    thats what happens when you treat badminton like a commodity. What about product differentiation?

  17. #51
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Burnaby, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,474
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thumpsky View Post
    Key thing is to specialize. There's a local badminton place that has tried to do everything under one roof, I.e., restaurant, ping pong, etc and I think it's a mistake.Seeking out PARTNERS to fill those roles makes more sense. For instance, share the rent with a bubble tea or Vietnamese coffee joint. That would be a perfect fit.Maybe even get a pro shop in there.
    You're talking about Badminton Vancouver right?

    I think the ping pong was a mistake as I seldom see it ever being used. That extra space could have been better used to space out the courts better.

    The restaurant isn't such a bad idea. Since there's no real restaurant in the nearby area. It's upstairs on top of the washrooms, foyer, and pro shop (which would have been wasted space anyways). They should have a liquor license by now. So after a session...take a quick shower and head upstairs for a burger and brewski.

    There is a pro shop as well...albeit a small one just behind the front desk area. They partnered up with All Court Stringing...so they bring the rackets and do the stringing. And they provide demo rackets to try out (at $10 deposit towards a racket purchase). I haven't seen any courts that do that.

    They have a former Olympian Anna Rice as a coach to provide lessons as well.

    All in all...it's not a bad set up. My only complaints are the flooring is a bit hard (imo) and the lighting on some courts are terrible (especially if you are looking at the foyer...maybe they should have drapes or something to block out the sunlight). Haven't tried the drop-in on a busy weeknight...so I can't comment on that.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •