Thread: Engine Modification
10-11-2003, 04:12 PM #18
Any sequential turbo system out there that would spring to life in the low end, below 2000 rpm and produce powerful mid range? What about variable vane turbine/compressor geometry turbos?
Originally posted by Traum
With today's turbo-charged engines, this is no longer true. Low-pressure turbos are very popular right now. You can find them in the VW 1.8T Golf/Jetta/Beetle/Passat, Audi 1.8T A4 / TT, the Volvo S40, and the Saab 93 Linear at least. In the VW/Audi case, the turbo kicks in at a mere 1950 to 2200 rpm (depending on model), and maintains an almost flat torque curve at 155 to 170-ish lbs/ft all the way up to 5500rpm or so. So depending on the type of turbo that PeterLSD wants to go with, a decent low-end and a powerful mid-range is certainly possible.
Technically, I think automotive engineers only refer to the compression ratio as the ratio between the maximum cylinder capacity (at the bottom of the down stroke of the cylinder head) vs the minimum cylinder capacity (at the very top of the up stroke). As long as that is not changed, the compression ratio will remain the same. So a blower could be attached to cram more air (and therefore fuel) into the engine cylinder, they still refer to the compression ratio as the max vs min capacity.
10-12-2003, 02:22 AM #19
Sorry, Peter. I'm only somewhat familiar with the mods that are available to the VW 1.8T engines, so I really wouldn't know what to recommend. Your best bet will probably be going directly to the folks at Kinetic Motorsports and get some expert advice.
p.s. BTW, the Civic is already something you have right now, right? If you haven't purchased the car yet, perhaps you really ought to take a look at the VW GTI/Jetta 1.8T. There is a ton of performance aftermarket products out there avaliable for the VW MkIV cars.
10-12-2003, 11:10 AM #20
There is always going to be turbo lag unless either you get a supecharger or squeeze some NOS in the low gears to spool up the turbo, trust me, there is no turbo that kicks in @ 2000 rpm, even the ball bearing turbos kick in at about 3500 rpm and that is super early already.
10-12-2003, 03:04 PM #21
Originally posted by cooler
peter lsd, if you want cost effective flat torque curve, stuff a v6 in it.
Try and true auto/bike makers toyota, honda, ferrari, M. Benz, yamaha, kawasaki, suzuki, bmw, etc don't use turbo in their sport cars/bikes. Some sport bikes can rev over 10,000 rpm and turbocharging is still not used.
There is no replacement for displacment.
10-12-2003, 03:14 PM #22
Sorry folks. I made a mistake about the 2004 Civic Si. It only comes with the "wimpy" 1.7L 127hp engine instead of the 2.0L 160hp engine.
Hope nobody was misled.
10-12-2003, 08:00 PM #23
Originally posted by cooler
with exception of indy (toyota, honda, ferrari) because their budget is unlimited.
AHA! You're going to say, but F1 cars don't use turbos! But they did, they changed the rules so that they made turbos unviable. Even now I don't think they produce the power with their 3 lt V10s that they had with the 1 lt turbos back in the day.
Okay other points it's obvious a lot of you don't understand some of the terms being used. Compression ratio (not compression) is defined as the volume of the cylinder / (volume of the cylinder - swept volume), having a turbo or not makes little difference to this. Actually when you add a turbo you sometimes lower the compression ratio (I know this seems silly, but it does make sense).
To the guy that said turbos don't kick in till 3500 rpm you really have to look at low boost turbos. No not the massive snails you see on WRXs/EVOs etc, go have a look at an Audi 1.8T. Because they are much smaller, and provide much less boost/compression they spool up much faster with a much lower requirement for exhaust gases, thus can provide boost from really low rpm (admittedly there will always be some turbo lag almost by definition, unless you use some really snazzy tech, NOS isn't the only way, I like how the rally cars do it, admittedly I wouldn't like to rebuild my engine after every race ;P).
Oh back to the point, I suppose as mentioned earlier, there are three options available to you, turbo charging, super charging and slipping in a differently configured engine (not necessarily a V6).
Turbo charging is the most elegant (IMO) since in real terms you are using wasted energy from you engine in terms of fast moving exhaust gases to add more power to your vehicle, FUN! However to add a turbo you could have heat, chip and timing problems which could be more trouble than it's worth.
Super charging is good because it would provide instant response. It's quite simple to do and would give you a nice result. Two things against are the damn whine (unless you can buy the screw type nowadays) and that it actually robs you of maximum theorectical power since you use engine power to turn the supercharger.
Slot in a different engine. Putting a V6 into an engine bay never designed for one would really suck. V6's (except possibly the 15 degree V6 that VW made) are in general a totally different shape to inline fours so having to move all your stuff in the engine bay to fit would be painful. Also if you want more torque, get bigger cylinders. Get rid of that four cylinder engine and slip in a 1.7 lt 2 cylinder engine and I guarantee you'll have crap loads more mid range. In fact Honda even makes an engine about this size and configuration and uses it in the Valkerie motorbike (1.8 lt V2) Of course this isn't really that feasbile for most people and it is lumpy as all hell, if your ridden a big V twin bike you'll know. Similarly a four will have more torque than a six the same size. In real terms though for more torque it'd probably be easiest (in terms of size fit and orientation (which is why a V2 wouldn't really work, though a parellel 2 would ;P)) just to slot in a bigger four.
My recommendation: (theorectically) get a low boost supercharger but since no one makes these, get a low boost turbo as you originally wanted.
PS 150 ft lbs isn't really that much torque is it?
PPS My bike redlines at 17,500 rpm and I worked out it has approximately the same volumetric displacement rate as a suzuki cappucino engine so I could use the turbo from that on my bike ;P
Last edited by Pecheur; 10-12-2003 at 08:11 PM.
10-12-2003, 10:08 PM #24
that (displacement statement) wasn't an end all statement but a general and practical street term. I have seen big engine performance and they have gob of torque, reliable and minimum hassle. Couple of cars that my friends have are 700+hp with blower and 500 hp without blower. They are all street legal and can idle at red light.
Also, the 'unlimited budget' statement was for me to make a point that their budget is very high, definitely not for us working folks. One can buy a 350 hp V8 in a crate cheaper than turbo accessories.
Turbo is nice too, they are relatively compact and work well when they are done right.
Last edited by cooler; 10-12-2003 at 10:17 PM.
10-12-2003, 10:30 PM #25
Originally posted by cooler
One can buy a 350 hp V8 in a crate cheaper than turbo accessories.
10-13-2003, 01:54 AM #26
Originally posted by Pecheur
Whilst this is true, I'd like to see someone put a cheap 350 Hp V8 into a Civic Actually there's always the Mazda bullet, basically a MX6, you guys call it a miata with the Lexus V8 in it. Great engine, however you could buy a lot of turbo parts for that engine.
Yes, stuffing a bigger engine with some engine mount/drive shaft mods can still be cheaper than installing a turbo. chevy parts and maintenance are so cheap compare to maintaining a turbocharged system (of course i'm assuming in north america)
just did a search and got this
Golf/Jetta/Rabbit TransplantsFord 351W Ford MustangFord 302
it's not a chevy 350 but 351W and 302 are V8 similar size to chevy V8
Last edited by cooler; 10-13-2003 at 02:08 AM.
10-13-2003, 02:16 AM #27
this link has pics and testamonies
it's not a honda but i hope you got my drift
Oh Yeah, displacement rules !!
Last edited by cooler; 10-13-2003 at 02:21 AM.
10-13-2003, 11:05 AM #28
10-13-2003, 08:41 PM #29
that's neat but dont forget the cost of the batteries. Batteries dont last forever under yoyo cycling. Best if this system pair up with a hybrid system where banks of batteries already there.
Cooler is saving the best for last. This system is relative cheap and it's simple to install. Here are the real world results. It makes me drool every time i read them.
Duramax is a chevy truck which u know trucks have poor wheel rear traction.
Duramax proves its faster then a 2003 Z06 405HP Chevrolet Corvette. The Corvette bites the dust at the California Raceway VS the Duramax diesel which was equipped with the all new Tech Extreme and a maximizer. With 10" racing slicks the Duramax Diesel completed a quarter mile in 13.0 sec. The new Tech Extreme and maximizer totals 600 HP and 1000 ft-lb of torque and in the 98 degree ambient outdoor temperature it shows that one of the fastest manufactured cars in the world cannot compare with this setup.
Duramax smokes a Ford Mustang with installed headers @ California Raceway with only a maximizer and P2000.
Duramax beats a Vortex Supercharged Ford Mustang @ Carlsbad Raceway
3rd gear burn out. WOW! Note -- no black smoke from tail pipe like with diesel performance chips. The only smoke you will see with the maximizer is from the tires!
You do not misrepresent your product at all. It took me less than 30 minutes to install it. It worked wonderfully. Unfortunately, it is raining here tonight, so I really can't do anything but spin the tires, but above about 40 or 45 mph it does wonderfully. This product is definitely impressive. Except for the little knob on the dash (and the extra power) you don't even know it is there. I have done this type of mod on many vehicles, but never with this kind of results. It is like adding nitrous to a gas engine. Well done guys. I will tell everyone I see
11-14-2003, 01:29 AM #30
Pete, the december issue of HOT ROD has a very good write on what and how to turbo a car.
As advancement in naturally aspirated engine peak, i'm seeing a lot more commercial application of turbocharging (and supercharging) in the upper end models. Ex Mercedes Benz S600. Their AMG opt for supercharging. Porsche is turbocharging its Cayenne SUV.
Last edited by cooler; 11-14-2003 at 01:33 AM.
11-16-2003, 09:36 PM #31
I thought Mercedes Benz either run naturally aspirated or supercharge all their engines except for the SL600 and S600, which are both V12 turbo charged.
You're right cooler, more and more manufacturers are now looking at adding forced induction engines to their range. Just hope they don't all go mad like in the 80s - where they made a 1.3l engine pumping out 1500+ bhp.... (not for road use, of course!)
11-16-2003, 09:53 PM #32
1500hp? that sound like an indy car engine. IMO, car manufacturers are more into HP game than back in the 80s'. Even the japanese autos are now bigger and have more hp than its previous models. Soccer moms are driving 5000 lbs SUV around and never see any off road. The cadillac escalade (suv hog) is #1 stolen vehicle in north america. Hummer is also very popular too. Big is in Even i might have to give into it
cut and pasted from a site, i laugh aloud reading it but true.
New, for 2004:
-Escalade curb weight increased by 725 lbs for increased massiveness!
-MPG decreased to 8MPG, a 20% change!
-Center of gravity raised by 36%.
-Cow pusher grills standard to prevent shopping cart impacts.
-Lowered tires and rims for 18% reduction in ground clearance!
-A 7% raise on sticker price to distinguish yourself from your neighbors!
-Free "I support Saudi Terrorist" stickers
Last edited by cooler; 11-16-2003 at 10:01 PM.
11-16-2003, 10:00 PM #33
actually, when i look at car specs nowadays, i pay more attention to the torque than HP. and in particular, make sure that the car's torque peak at lower rpms. for most of us, torque is what accelerates the car and for most driving, we are reving low anyway.
my Honda annoys me in the way that torque (and hp) peaks at like 5000rpm. who cares about 5000rpm? how often do i go up to 5000rpm? very rarely. and below that, it has less torque than a lowly corolla. how useless is that?
11-16-2003, 10:13 PM #34
torque (and hp) peaks at like 5000rpm. who cares about 5000rpm? how often do i go up to 5000rpm?
Wahahahahahaha, i feel for ya kwun
Yes, torque rules. No torque, no hp. Unfortunately, torque is quite related to displacement which lead back to the saying 'no replacement for displacement'
Since city driving put a wide range of demand on an engine, it is a balancing act how car makers distribute torque vs hp along the rpm for a particular car and its purpose.
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