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  1. #1
    Regular Member ucantseeme's Avatar
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    Default [Doubles] Getting in the attacking position and stay

    Hi BC-Members,

    if have a hard problem and had this evening a conflict with an older girl. We played doubles together and IMO she did some things wrong. We got loud and then she finished with the sentence "I'm older and play longer than you". I was so mad that I could beat her. This stupid...calm down

    Following situation.

    We stand in defensive position [Side by Side], then the opponent did a clear on my side. I moved back, she stood in the same position (middle of her court and side) and don't moved to the net. I played mostly different kinds of drops and smashs, because I was in balance, was early enough at the back and could reach the shuttle at high point and clears should be used rarely.
    She told me everytime, when I hit a longline smash or drop, that I should move to the net, which sounds to me nonsense, because I can reach every return which is high and she can reach every shuttle at the net if the move to the T.
    It sounds crazy to me because, why the heck should I move to the net? The opponents can only play various net drops or lift the shuttle, if my smash has a good angle and my dropshot is sharp.
    She said, she couldn't know which shot I do and can't reach the shuttle at the net, if a netdrop be the return and her way is longer than mine. I told her that I'm keen to get in the attacking position and stay as long as possible in this position as possible to win the rally. This is the reason why I only play smashs and drops. Her answer was, this is to predictable.
    Than her friends came and told me that I'm wrong, because a drop shot is not an offense shot and I play short with a dropshot and should move to the net. I'm very angry, didn't ever had such beef with any partner.
    What is your opinion of this situation? What would you do (moving on court and to stay cool)?
    I think I'm right, because I have seen many professionals doing this and watched this video which explains my sight of view and situation and what I do:



    If I do a smash or drop at a rear corner longline and would move to the net, she must run half around me, if the oponents do a lift to the same corner.
    Last edited by ucantseeme; 03-18-2013 at 06:32 PM.

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    Normally your partner should move to the front if you do a drop or smash down cross, its dangerous for you to move forward as your opponent can lift it over your head leaving your partner who is not in a good position to retrieve it. Its easier if your partner moves forward as you are already covering the rear position of the court so the front and rear court would still be covered. Your partner needs to improve her footwork if she feels she cant get to the front quick enough. This is my opinion anyway, I'm sure there other members here who can give better opinions.

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    I think you are right. Already at the moment when you are getting the clear and thus moving backwards to receive the clear, she should be moving into the T, thus forming the attacking position. Should you hit a clear back, she simply has to move back again, but why would you hit a clear again if you, as you say, are not under pressure.

    But this is true for more dynamic and advanced doubles. At a more beginner's level, where you tend to stay side by side more, I can see her point. Then you need to follow your own drops to the net because she can't know what shot you're playing. But that problem wouldn't happen if she wouldn't stay in the defensive position when you receive the clear. So is she doubting your ability in the backcourt, or maybe she is herself unsure at the net?

    And it's quite ridiculous for her friends to say that the dropshot is not an offensive shot. If you would do as they say and follow your shots to the net, is she then quick enough to cover the whole backcourt herself, that's the question.

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    Regular Member ucantseeme's Avatar
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    Thank you samir12 and vixter. BCers will never abandon me.

    She is not a beginner. The funny thing is that she plays one league higher than me on paper.

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    When I play mixed doubles I play almost the entire match at the back of the court with my partner at the net unless for instance we are defending a smash. As most woman struggle to do baseline to baseline clears I believe this is the best formation and I think in your situation you are right. If see says she is more experienced than you she should be good at the net and ready to kill any weak returns you set up for her.

    However in mens doubles if you play a straight dropshot or smash down the line I would follow her tactic. It should take you only 1 or 2 steps to reach the net as you will be standing around midcourt. You will know which shot you playing so can move earlier and it will be a shorter distance as it's your side. Your partner would then take the back and hopefully kill any lifts.

    Im sure your clears are better than hers so you are probably right.

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    I do learn lots from Lee Jea Bok's videos on the technique and all.

    I've also come across about his "Poor Badminton Player's behaviour - The player who says I should have won" series. There's another one talking about your partner.

    I've learnt the most here is that this is my partner, not my student, son, lesser human, boss or grandmaster.

    Your intension of passing over the proper technique is great. However, your master and servant attitude (according to LJB's video) has to be improved.

    My appologies if my words are a bitter pill to swallow. I'm no good with words.

    Since we are on LJB's video, please watch more of his videos on "Poor Badminton Player's behaviour" and "how to become a advance badminton player" series. These videos did turn my prospective about the doubles especically trying to get my wife to up her skills.... haizzz... I'm having problems getting her to do the "step one" thingz.

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    ^ I thought that she was the one telling him that he was wrong every time he didn't follow his drops to the net. Basically you just called him out on having a 'poor behavior' and a 'master attitude' without coming with any tactical advice regarding the situation.

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    Regular Member ucantseeme's Avatar
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    Trust me I was very friendly and to the point to her, but telling me to do things, which she didn't do in the same situation is not logical.
    Based on her advice to me, we must rotate every time, if the backcourt player receives a lift and plays a drop or smash if we follow her rules.
    This method would get me and my partner everytime out of position, everyone has to run alot and gets in trouble quickly.
    IMO there is something wrong with her. She moved to the T stayed there if I did a clear, because I was in trouble.
    I never had problems at my club and everyone who played with me did it the same like me.
    She is the only one who is dislikeable, because she makes fun of weaker player, call them victims and thinks that she knows everything best.

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    Whilst generally agreeing with most of the points here, I would suggest some slight amendments.

    In doubles, when the shuttle is played to one player, their partner must immediately take up a complementary attacking position. In other words, by the time the OP has hit the shuttle, their partner should already be in a good position. When the opposition lift or clear, then this complementary position is roughly a racket length behind the T and slightly on the same side as the shuttle.

    In the OP's scenario, I see no point in standing to the far side of your mid-court. Your partner doesn't need to know what you will do, because they will be able to adjust from a good position.

    If you smash, your partner is already in the correct place to intercept weak responses. If you straight or center drop, they can take a couple of steps to where the shuttle would land and again cover weak responses. If you clear, they have plenty of time to take up a defensive position. Even if you smash/drop x-court, they have time to move across to cover the opponent's straight response.

    The only scenario where you would contemplate moving in after your own drop is if you intercept in the fore or mid court. In this case, if the OP plays a drop rather than a drive or smash, then they should follow the shot in, with their partner taking up a complementary attacking position about 2-3 racket lengths behind the service line and slightly on the same side as the shuttle.

    At low levels of play, clearing is quite common, because moving the (weak) opposition about generates unforced errors. However, that is no excuse for the OP's partner to stay wide when the shuttle is lifted to the OP. If 2 players play consecutive straight clears to one another, it may appear to be a waste of time for their respective partners to move left and right. However, at intermediate and higher levels of play, attacking quickly becomes the only way to win against decent opposition. Failure to support your partner's smash gives your opposition an easy block to get out of your attack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vixter View Post
    ^ I thought that she was the one telling him that he was wrong every time he didn't follow his drops to the net. Basically you just called him out on having a 'poor behavior' and a 'master attitude' without coming with any tactical advice regarding the situation.
    I, Me, You, She, They, Them, We... whatever....

    May I suggest you to look into the attitude and philosophy part of his videos. I'm sure you could learn a lot from it.

    For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlVAe1W8040

    By the way, "Poor badminton behaviour" and "Master servant" were phases picked in his videos.

    May I add a maths question: 1 + 1 = syngery.

    If I've not put my point across clear enough, I would have to watch more videos to improve my expressions.

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    Hit some center or straight half smashes or drives and go forward. When they clobber it to the back and she can't handle the return tell her "Should I have stayed back there?" or "Oh darn, I should have stayed back there".

    I don't agree with her at all BTW.

    I hate to say it and I hate to stereotype, but I too find weaker older players are stuck in their ways. They seem to be happier to sit there and hit rather play any type of proper formation. They're not there to try and improve their game anymore. I won't tell anyone more than once or twice, if you don't get it, you won't get it. This is when you take 3/4 of the court and box them in a corner. Consider it a footwork drill.

    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucantseeme View Post
    Trust me I was very friendly and to the point to her, but telling me to do things, which she didn't do in the same situation is not logical.
    Based on her advice to me, we must rotate every time, if the backcourt player receives a lift and plays a drop or smash if we follow her rules.
    This method would get me and my partner everytime out of position, everyone has to run alot and gets in trouble quickly.
    IMO there is something wrong with her. She moved to the T stayed there if I did a clear, because I was in trouble.
    I never had problems at my club and everyone who played with me did it the same like me.
    She is the only one who is dislikeable, because she makes fun of weaker player, call them victims and thinks that she knows everything best.
    I'm sure you are friendly. I'm sure too you have great technique and tactics too and applaud your effort to instill these proper techniques to others. Unfortunately, got frustrated when others are not accepting it. I too met some who insist on playing on a fixed formation (either attack OR defend ) from point 1 to 21 and its frusting.
    Well, if you don't partner them, they won't learn (frustrating).
    If you play against them, you know where the holes are (no fun).
    Partner them and inpart your skills over slowly (challenging)
    So, its still your choice.
    I can't advise on technique as I'm old and limited.

    Hope I got myself clear this time. Anyway, I'm just sharing my experiences for the last 2 yrs. I've choosen the last option. At least some of the single formation players start to appreciate rotating roles.

    Hope you'll enjoy more of your games. I know I did.

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    I believe the OP is mostly right, and L&L described mostly the adjustments I'd in mind as well.

    The OP's response to the clear after his own drop/smash depends on where he plays it. If opponent's earlier clear is short in length (to mid court), OP's partner should probably remain side, yielding space for OP to smash (best response), after which OP should follow up control the net, while his partner rotates to the back.

    Regardless, rotation from Side-Side to attack formation should be instantaneous. However, moving to the T generally is not right. It's too far forward. Have a look at Lee J.B.'s videos on Doubles rotation.

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    well, it's all a matter of "how good are you"?

    as a beginner, most people tend to play "everyone takes his half court sid". that's rubbish!
    as soon as you're a bit advanced, your goal is to get into an attacking position, whcih means; if your opponent lifts, one player moves to the backcourts and does an offensive shot (drop or smash), the partner occupies the net. that's probably the situation you're in, and you're right!

    as soon as you're more advanced, there is a lot more rotation in doubles play. that means: if the lift is too short, you usually smash and follow through to the net, your partner then covers the backcourt. that needs good footwork and good understanding (when do i have to rotate? when do we stay) of the partners and is therefore suitable for advanced players.

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    Regular Member ucantseeme's Avatar
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    Thanks to all of you for your help. Special thanks to |_Footwork_| for your superb input.
    Yes, I know this about the rotation and the different acting when it comes to lifts to the midcourt. If came close to my partner at the frontcourt because of too short lifts we need to rotate and change the position. That's clear. But rotation after every offense shot is not necessary and rubbish.
    @Orangie

    Thanks for your posts although they didn't answer my questions. I personally think that if you lose 6 or more points in a game because of you are not arranged with your partner and your opponents use this and the empty space to make points because both nearly freeze and both think that they do it the right way is this a fact which need to talk about.
    I'm not interested to lecture my partner, but sometimes, if you find an interent problem in your agreement, you must to talk about that after a game or match. Otherwise you can't work well together and this is IMO important if you play doubles in an advanced and serious condition.

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    I feel your pain so many players, who should know better, think when you play an drop shot from the back its not attacking and you should follow it through.
    You were right to communicate your problem respectfully. Communication is key to success in badminton

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    you are right she should move to the front....normally if I was in her shoe, I will take a half step to the front - note : not all the way to the front but just closer to it , and I will observe what shot you do...if you clear high I move back to side by side position, if you drop i rush to net to cover and pressure.

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