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  1. #52
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    i have quite a number of cameras over the years. a Nikon F3 with md4 motordrive,a Nikon F90X both of them are still functionable but pretty old!
    One Nikon F3P with md4. which i dropped on to the ground in 1994 because of that. the rear die casing are bended. couldn't be repaired. i.e total lost!!!
    One Nikon F4S. i left it in a taxi in 1996.
    One Leica M6. which was stolen in 1999.
    One Nikon D1 (company camera). lot of problems now but functionable!
    i am a photojournalist since 1991. at the beginning, i guess most of the photographers would do the same thing like me. focusing on the equipment! but time after time, u will find that camera isn't the most important thing infact your brain,eyes and your fingers are much more important.
    basically, the F70 is good enough on most situations. the only weakness of that camera is the shutter response. it's not fast enough. especially for the sports photography and snap shot taking.
    Last edited by red00ecstrat; 11-13-2003 at 08:44 AM.

  2. #53
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    Originally posted by red00ecstrat

    i am a photojournalist since 1991. at the beginning, i guess most of the photographers would do the same thing like me. focusing on the equipment! but time after time, u will find that camera isn't the most important thing infact your brain,eyes and your fingers are much more important.
    basically, the F70 is good enough on most situations. the only weakness of that camera is the shutter response. it's not fast enough. especially for the sports photography and snap shot taking.
    Actually, I've found that equipment makes a great difference to the quality of the shot; for example, if I'm doing indoor work where I can't use a flash, then I need a lens which has a max aperture size of f2 or lower, I need a cam which is stable while shooting at speeds of 1/60 & 1/30 without a tripod (the old Pentax and Canon cameras are good, but the steel casing causes too much vibration & hence camera shake). None of these problems exist when you're a sports photographer, because you're using film with a high ASA, using telephoto lenses, shooting at high shutter speeds, using a flash etc.

    As for the Nikon F70, I thought this camera was designed for sports photography. I've never used it, but I suppose all old cams are not so good for continuous shooting. The new semi-automatic SLR'S with top shutter speeds of 1/2000 are better in this respect; but they're designed for the sort of photography I'm rarely concerned with.

  3. #54
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    I know it probably isnít that simple, but I ask anyway.

    I want to take a good picture of a moving badminton player meaning the picture is bright, sharp and the player/s is occupying 2/3 or more of the picture. I donít want to use the digital zoom mainly because it loses the resolution.

    That's say I am sitting about 150 ft away from the center of the badminton court. It is indoor (of cause ) and no fresh light is allow. What f-stop value, shutter speed setting and zoom lens will do the job for both 35mm EXP 100 and digital EXP 100? I know that most digital cameras have shutter delay. How can I handle this problem?

    If the EXP 100 is too much to ask, then what is acceptable EXP for this type of picture?

    Is the auto focus fast enough for badminton type of movements, and how fast?

    I think these information will really help us decide which camera to purchase for taking baddy actions.

    I have feeling that this camera probably causes a lot. thanks in advance.

  4. #55
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    I guess photography is kind of like badminton. Once you've enter a relatively high end range, the user's skill weighs far more than any change in equipment. But if you are using something more lowly... say a disposable camera... then a user's skill can only shine in a few limited situations.

    I myself use the F50. I think it's a more entry-level computerized SLR. Not sure if it's the same lense as the F70 but the shutter is plenty fast for sporty shots i've been using.

    As for sports photography using digital camera... most of those censors can't get a good picture without getting a lot of light. I think it'd be much cheaper camera-wise just to use a conventional SLR?

  5. #56
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    Hey Fan. The general rule of thumb for stationary photography is that your shutter speed needs to be the reciprocal of your focal length. i.e. If you've (optically) zoomed out your lens to a focal length of 100mm, you'll need to have at least a shutter speed of 1/100 sec to avoid camera shake (and hence blurry pictures).

    From my experience, lighting at the local gyms are extremely dim for taking badminton pictures. I've tried shooting at approximately 150mm, 1/125sec / F2.8 on ISO 1600 in ClearOne, but most pictures are still at least 1 stop too dark. VRC looks even dimmer, so I didn't even bother.

    To comensate for the dreadful shutter delays with most pro-sumer grade digital cameras, all a photographer can do is to anticipate the player's actions. This will be especially difficult if you are using the LCD as your viewfinder, since a lot of them tend to freeze for a split second the moment you press down on the shutter release. It's just something you'll have to learn to live with though.

    Regarding the auto focus on the cameras, I find that it is often better for beginners (myself included) to apply a focus lock and wait for the subject to move into the focal plane.

    -Rick

    Originally posted by fan
    I know it probably isnít that simple, but I ask anyway.

    I want to take a good picture of a moving badminton player meaning the picture is bright, sharp and the player/s is occupying 2/3 or more of the picture. I donít want to use the digital zoom mainly because it loses the resolution.

    That's say I am sitting about 150 ft away from the center of the badminton court. It is indoor (of cause ) and no fresh light is allow. What f-stop value, shutter speed setting and zoom lens will do the job for both 35mm EXP 100 and digital EXP 100? I know that most digital cameras have shutter delay. How can I handle this problem?

    If the EXP 100 is too much to ask, then what is acceptable EXP for this type of picture?

    Is the auto focus fast enough for badminton type of movements, and how fast?

    I think these information will really help us decide which camera to purchase for taking baddy actions.

    I have feeling that this camera probably causes a lot. thanks in advance.

  6. #57
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    Originally posted by bigredlemon
    As for sports photography using digital camera... most of those censors can't get a good picture without getting a lot of light. I think it'd be much cheaper camera-wise just to use a conventional SLR?
    One problem with sticking to film camera is the cost of film and development. If you want good sports pictures, you are going to want to shot a LOT. The safest way to do this is to load up the motor drive, hold down the shutter release, and just let the camera snap away at its maximum frame rate. Naturally, this burns film at a surprisingly fast rate, and it takes quite a bit of practice to compose decent pictures this way.

    To a certain extend, Canon's new Digital Rebel / EOS 300D is making things a lot easier since the camera isn't prohibitively expensive (US$999 with lens). But at 3fps and with only a buffer for 4 pictures, it still falls a bit short, IMO, for sports photography.

    -Rick

  7. #58
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    i alway have trouble getting good sport image from my digital camera.
    What shutter speed is suitable for sport action?

  8. #59
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    Originally posted by cooler
    i alway have trouble getting good sport image from my digital camera.
    What shutter speed is suitable for sport action?
    I'm still experimenting with sports photographer now, so it is probably better to ask our resident photojournalist, red00ecstrat, for the professional answer. But from my experience, if you want the stop-action type of pictures where your subject freezes in mid-air, you'll want to set it as fast as possible, without compromising your exposure setting (i.e. your picture is still bright enough). If you want a bit of motion blur to convey a sense of movement, the 1/90sec to 1/125sec range seems to work quite well for me shooting badminton stuff.

    -Rick

  9. #60
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    Originally posted by Traum
    Hey Fan. The general rule of thumb for stationary photography is that your shutter speed needs to be the reciprocal of your focal length. i.e. If you've (optically) zoomed out your lens to a focal length of 100mm, you'll need to have at least a shutter speed of 1/100 sec to avoid camera shake (and hence blurry pictures).

    ----------------------

    I don't know where you heard this, but in practise it's not so clear cut as this; rather it depends more on the individual holding the camera. I can shoot with a tamron 20-200 fully extended at a shutter speed of 1/60 without a tripod with no camera shake. It's difficult, because the length of the lens means it's more susceptible to slight movements, but certainly possible.

    ----------------------------



    "From my experience, lighting at the local gyms are extremely dim for taking badminton pictures. I've tried shooting at approximately 150mm, 1/125sec / F2.8 on ISO 1600 in ClearOne, but most pictures are still at least 1 stop too dark. VRC looks even dimmer, so I didn't even bother."
    -Rick


    Use a higher speed film. Unless you're using ASA 100, you're not going to notice that much difference in quality between ASA 400 and 800; try and source a lens which has a bigger aperture. Most fixed lenses go down to f2, some of the Canon and Pentax lenses go down to f1.4.

    Cooler, what type of camera have you got? To get a clear snapshot ("freeze frame") in sports photography, you need to use a shutterspeed of at least 1/500.
    Last edited by ynexfan2003; 11-13-2003 at 04:37 PM.

  10. #61
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    I don't know where you heard this, but in practise it's not so clear cut as this; rather it depends more on the individual holding the camera. I can shoot with a tamron 20-200 fully extended at a shutter speed of 1/60 without a tripod with no camera shake. It's difficult, because the length of the lens means it's more susceptible to slight movements, but certainly possible.
    The one over focal length rule is just a general rule of thumb that is published in numerous beginner photography books. Being a rule of thumb, it is only meant to serve as a rough guideline. Just as you can shoot at 200mm at 1/60s, I can sometimes brace myself shoot in the 28 - 50mm range with a shutter speed as low as 1/8s (but then this is on my IS lense, with built-in image stabilization). Exceptions are bound to exist.

    Originally posted by ynexfan2003
    [B]Use a higher speed film. Unless you're using ASA 100, you're not going to notice that much difference in quality between ASA 400 and 800; try and source a lens which has a bigger aperture. Most fixed lenses go down to f2, some of the Canon and Pentax lenses go down to f1.4.
    As I have written earlier, I was already using an ISO setting of 1600. I guess they call it the ASA rating over in UK, but here in N.A., it's called the ISO rating. Getting a brighter lense is certainly an option, but I'll need to save up a bit of money before that can happen.

    -Rick

  11. #62
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    [i]Originally posted by ynexfan2003 [/i
    As for the Nikon F70, I thought this camera was designed for sports photography. I've never used it, but I suppose all old cams are not so good for continuous shooting. The new semi-automatic SLR'S with top shutter speeds of 1/2000 are better in this respect; but they're designed for the sort of photography I'm rarely concerned with. [/B]
    hi ynexfan2003

    infact i was not talking about the shutter speed i.e 1/250, 1/500 sort of thing. i was talking about the respoonce of the shutter that mean time between u press on it and it actually functioning. all camere are different! the F70 is a kindda "normal" responce. when u pick up a F5 and press on the shutter. feel to it, u will know what i was talking about. in other word, take badminton as an example. u can use both F70 and F5 to freeze a shuttlecock in your picture with a shutter speed of 1/1000 sec for example. if u check your pictures u will find that u can hardly find a shuttlecock in your picture by using the F70 coz the shutter responce is not fast enough. bird had already been hitted to the other side of the badminton court! but this kind of problem will never happen to the pro cameras such as F3 with MD4 motordrive, F4, F5, Canon New F1, and those top EOS(s). if still coundn't get the bird in your picture with them and i guess u should get more practicing on your brain your eyes and your fingers.
    let's talk about quality of the lenes. u will find that there will be quite a big difference in leica lenes and nikon or canon lenes. especally in the shadow area. there will be more detail with leica lenes. but for the pix which u took with the nikon and canon lenes. it seems to be a bit "muddy" in the shadow area. of coz i mean comparing them under the same shutter speed, same aperture at the same situation.
    for photography, i think the "content" with a better composition of your picture is much more important than other thing.
    thats what i was trying to say in the previous post.
    p.s (nowaday the canon eos 1 series is the best for sports photography! but it's no jokes. my old nikon f3 with md4 motordrive is still my key weapon for my sports assignment.)

    regards

    red00ecstrat
    Last edited by red00ecstrat; 11-13-2003 at 06:59 PM.

  12. #63
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    The hall must be very dim indeed if you can't get a decent pic. using ASA1600, 1/125 shutter speed, and an aperture size of f2.8; do the players wear night-goggles? What sort of lens are you using and why don't you use an external flash (the built-in flashes are kak) ?
    I'm surprised you have this problem, as by your description you must be using something like a 80-200 telephoto lens w. max aperture size of f2.8; these lenses are not cheap. Most telephoto lenses in that range under £300 have a max fstop of 4.5 or maybe f3.6 if you can pick up a good deal on a cheapish lens like a Tokina.

    You can shoot at 1/8sec. without a tripod? Can you send me a photograph so I can erect a shrine in your honour? I thought I was doing good in managing to get a decent picture occasionally at 1/30, having spent ten minutes arranging the shot and supporting the cam against wall etc.

  13. #64
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    red00ecstrat,
    I see what you mean; that's why I said old cams aren't very good for continuous shooting in action photography - too much delay in the shutter response. I wouldn't dream of using my old Pentax K1000 for action photography for this reason, but it's very good when using slow shutter speeds and slow film like ASA 50 B&W or ASA 100 Superia Reala. Having said that, I suppose if you're an intelligent photographer and are familiar with the mechanics of your camera, you could probably anticipate the delay; but it wouldn't be worth all the ruined prints!

    The problem I have with modern cameras is that most of the semi-automatic ones in my price range don't give enough control - e.g. double exposure and extended exposure. Some won't even let you override the size of aperture, which is annoying when you know that the light meter isn't taking into account something which a skilled photographer would. For example, the subject is between you and the source of light, and you want to overexpose by one stop or so to emphasise the details of the subject.

    Composition is very important; I've seen a lot of pics taken by amateur photographers where the chosen subject is good, but the final image is poor because they have not considered the angle, amount/direction of light, and placement of subject (usually with amateurs, splat! in the middle of the pic.) carefully enough before taking the shot.
    Last edited by ynexfan2003; 11-13-2003 at 07:21 PM.

  14. #65
    Regular Member red00ecstrat's Avatar
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    Originally posted by ynexfan2003
    red00ecstrat,
    I see what you mean; that's why I said old cams aren't very good for continuous shooting in action photography - too much delay in the shutter response. I wouldn't dream of using my old Pentax K1000 for action photography for this reason, but it's very good when using slow shutter speeds and slow film like ASA 50 B&W or ASA 100 Superia Reala. Having said that, I suppose if you're an intelligent photographer and are familiar with the mechanics of your camera, you could probably anticipate the delay; but it wouldn't be worth all the ruined prints!

    The problem I have with modern cameras is that most of the semi-automatic ones in my price range don't give enough control - e.g. double exposure and extended exposure. Some won't even let you override the size of aperture, which is annoying when you know that the light meter isn't taking into account something which a skilled photographer would. For example, the subject is between you and the source of light, and you want to overexpose by one stop or so to emphasise the details of the subject.

    Composition is very important; I've seen a lot of pics taken by amateur photographers where the chosen subject is good, but the final image is poor because they have not considered the angle, amount/direction of light, and placement of subject (usually with amateurs, splat! in the middle of the pic.) carefully enough before taking the shot.
    ynexfan2003:

    you have no choice mate, when u are in an extreme situation. just switch to full manual.
    one more thing. i remembered u was talking about the continuous shooting in previous post. my experience is that. even though u have a fast film killing machine and took a whole sequence of action. if u only need one best pix. more than 90%, u would probably pick the first frame of your sequence. coz u saw that moment happen right? the rest of the frames were just some "unknown shots" u can't really see what's happening that time because the mirror's going up and down. so don't worry too much on how many frames per second can handle, just concentrate on the best moment.

    red00ecstrat
    Last edited by red00ecstrat; 11-13-2003 at 08:07 PM.

  15. #66
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    Originally posted by red00ecstrat
    ynexfan2003:

    you have no choice mate, when u are in an extreme situation. just switch to full manual.
    one more thing. i remembered u was talking about the continuous shooting in previous post. my experience is that. even though u have a fast film killing machine and took a whole sequence of action. if u only need one best pix. more than 90%, u would probably pick the first frame of your sequence. coz u saw that moment happen right? the rest of the frames were just some "unknown shots" u can't really see what's happening that time because the mirror's going up and down. so don't worry too much on how many frames per second can handle, just concentrate on the best moment.

    red00ecstrat
    The slowest shutter speed on the manual SLR cam's I've been looking at - and not reissues of old cams under cheap manufacturers like Centon - is 1/30sec, and the lenses which come with them have a max aperture size of f3.5. Even if I just used my other cam for prolonged exposure etc., I'd need to buy a faster lens for the new camera. I'd like to buy the Canon f1.2, but I've no idea where to find it, and I'm sure it would be about £500. After searching for a replacement fixed lens (50mm) for my Pentax K, I finally found a Sigma f1.4, but the starting bid was £200+. I didn't think it was worth it, seeing that the same lens in f2 is only about £35. I guess it's all just supply in demand.
    Last edited by ynexfan2003; 11-13-2003 at 08:48 PM.

  16. #67
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    Do a search on Cameras and many issues discussed here come in other threads.

    As for the ISO/ASA rating issue, if you are serious and covering a grandprix tournament, there should be TV lighting which would help.

    But F1.8 would nearly be the minimum.


    I find the shutter delay on quite annoying, even the more expensive digital cameras that are halfway towards a SLR-type with F1.8 (Olympus) or F2.0 (Canon G5).

    Don't even mention those cheapo digital cameras.

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    Originally posted by ynexfan2003
    The slowest shutter speed on the manual SLR cam's I've been looking at - and not reissues of old cams under cheap manufacturers like Centon - is 1/30sec, and the lenses which come with them have a max aperture size of f3.5. Even if I just used my other cam for prolonged exposure etc., I'd need to buy a faster lens for the new camera. I'd like to buy the Canon f1.2, but I've no idea where to find it, and I'm sure it would be about £500.
    How about US?

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