# Thread: Hit the shuttle early versus delay and deception

1. Originally Posted by raymond
Of course, that's my subjective interpretation of what he said for this very particular trick shot.

At about 3:18, he explained if you hit the shuttle at the higher point, which based on his position he actually could take it there, it won't work; no one would believe you.

So he chose a lower hitting position. And he did say "holding the shot as long as possible", and he didn't say exactly "taking it as low as possible". Nevertheless, he intentionally took the shot lower than he could. While he held the shot, that shot was losing altitude.

I realize my interpretation is not precise. Can someone then explain, other than holding it for as long as possible, is there any significance in taking that shot lower rather than higher? I hope you can refer your answer to this particular trick shot in this particular video.
First i need to be clear about the term 'holding'. It means u have to be comfortably close to the shuttle and the shuttle is still on net height. It s impossible to do trick shot if u r still reaching for shuttle.

For doing the deception u have to know ur most comfortable point of contact for both fake and real shot. Like what Gade was doing (net to lift), his contact point for net is about shoulder height, and based on shuttle trajectory it will drop to his second option's contact point which is lift (about waist line). Therefore he has two option and he took the second to deceive the opponent. He wont be able to do that if the shuttle's trajectory is flat, push for example.

Other example would be http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktP_S838Sxk which i believe the video talked firstly in this post. Taufik's deception on 15:36 was net to crosscourt push. His net contact point is about shoulder height too and he only hold a bit till the shuttle comes to his second contact piont to push, unlike Gade because he was doing net to lift.

so imo it is not holding as long as possible or take higher and lower. It s the difference between your two or more comfortable shot you able to do on particular situation. And again, depending on shuttle's trajectory. Hope this helps.

2. Raymond, you are just misunderstanding what gade said. He said if he did the first motion too early, no one will believe it - because the shuttle is too far away. That means he does NOT have the option of playing it (that much) earlier as you are saying.

Edit, well, he could do the first motion earlier, but you have to change it to make it look like you will actually hit the bird. If you do this as early as possible then there is no hold! That takes away a whole level of deception.

3. Originally Posted by malinosega
For doing the deception u have to know ur most comfortable point of contact for both fake and real shot. Like what Gade was doing (net to lift), his contact point for net is about shoulder height, and based on shuttle trajectory it will drop to his second option's contact point which is lift (about waist line). Therefore he has two option and he took the second to deceive the opponent. He wont be able to do that if the shuttle's trajectory is flat, push for example.
Disagreee with this fundamentally. The double action deception works on showing a fake then as quickly as possible sending the shuttle elsewhere. It does not work based on where it is comfortable for you to do shots.

Additionally, Gade's hold position is no where close to net/shoulder high for the b/h deception shot that I think we're talking about!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1sOLxvQow)

4. Originally Posted by amleto
Raymond, you are just misunderstanding what gade said. He said if he did the first motion too early, no one will believe it - because the shuttle is too far away. That means he does NOT have the option of playing it (that much) earlier as you are saying.

Edit, well, he could do the first motion earlier, but you have to change it to make it look like you will actually hit the bird. If you do this as early as possible then there is no hold! That takes away a whole level of deception.
I don't see no double motion. He stuck his racket to a low position and kept it there, until the moment he hit it. Am I the only one that saw this?

Part of the deception is the fact that there's no big back swing. Secondly, his racket head is position to the left side of the oncoming shuttle, making it look like a cross-court shot. Instead, he played a straight shot, without any apparent effort to generate power, yet it's a straight flick.

5. ## A similar one by Lin Dan

Here's another similar one by Lin Dan. The differences here are: 1. He used set up in the previous few shots, it appeared he moved his opponent left and right alternately with net lift, then he played this fake that looked to be part of the pattern. 2. He took the shot earlier, much closer to net top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfxc0...127EFC&index=9

6. ## Yet another one by Lin Dan

This is another one by Lin Dan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDWo...27EFC&index=13

It worked because his opponent didn't expect him to be able to generate so much power and angle from the position so close to his body. Here, like the one by Gade earlier, Lin Dan didn't take the shot early, nor did he take it the highest point. You can see he was already in position, though he chose to let the shuttle drop, and get closer to his body.

Here's a different one (we'd changed topic, back to OP's thread now ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0bYO...27EFC&index=30

@0:20, you can see slow motion. As LJB explained (he had his own video on this), this is a 3-level deception. First hold, as though a net shot is to be played, then withdraw the racket as though a flick is to be played, then a cross-net.

7. Originally Posted by raymond
I don't see no double motion. He stuck his racket to a low position and kept it there, until the moment he hit it. Am I the only one that saw this?
He says from ~3.30 what he is going to do! He is not just holding his racket there! The camera is a bit closer in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKWigzcQoJQ

Part of the deception is the fact that there's no big back swing. Secondly, his racket head is position to the left side of the oncoming shuttle, making it look like a cross-court shot.
Yes. This is exactly the same as how to prepare for a hold -> cross-court block shot.

Instead, he played a straight shot, without any apparent effort to generate power, yet it's a straight flick.
Finger power is amazing. You can see from the link above that there is a reasonable back swing, though.

8. Originally Posted by raymond
Here's another similar one by Lin Dan. The differences here are: 1. He used set up in the previous few shots, it appeared he moved his opponent left and right alternately with net lift, then he played this fake that looked to be part of the pattern. 2. He took the shot earlier, much closer to net top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfxc0...127EFC&index=9
You cannot tell just from watching LD in that video whether he did double action or not on that shot - the quality and frame rate are not good enough. However, I will 99% guarantee you that a pro will not race to the forecourt like that guy did unless there was a fake motion first.

9. Originally Posted by amleto
I don't think so - holding at the net is showing a net shot. Holding overhead is showing a drop, and holding in between is showing a block.
This is fair enough. In my opinion, holding at the net is just "showing" the start of my flick, which just so happens to look like "showing" a net shot, which just so happens to look like "showing" a cross net shot. They all look the same when I hit them, so I am in effect just showing them the start of whichever shot I am playing. However, I see your point haha

10. As a nice aid to this discussion, please take some time to watch my favourite mens singles player

His name is Pullela Gopichand, and in this match he is playing Peter Gade. I can honestly say that Gopichand is the most deceptive player I have ever seen (possible exception is Zhao Jianhua). He uses a lot more than just double actions that I can see. Many of his shots involve slicing the shuttle to send it in the wrong direction (which is NOT double motion). His ability to hold so many of his shots is quite simply amazing in my book

Please enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ru9V5FPeiY

The rally at 8.00 in part 2 is finished by the most deceptive reverse slice I have ever seen!

11. Personally, from what my coaches told me, you only use deception shots when the opponent is READY for your next shot.

If your opponent is already in a poor position after receiving your shot, it is more beneficial to hit the bird early and speed up the pace of the game. By receiving it quickly, it is more difficult for your opponent to recover from his position and receive your shot again. Thus, changing the game into your favour.

If your opponent is ready for your next shot, this makes them more gullible to your actions and it will be more likely for you deception to work. Deception is only to create an opportunity to attack.

That's how I use deception.

12. Thanks for that MSeeley, I really enjoyed that match, do you have a couple more video recommendations for us?

13. Originally Posted by kklee1517
Personally, from what my coaches told me, you only use deception shots when the opponent is READY for your next shot.

If your opponent is already in a poor position after receiving your shot, it is more beneficial to hit the bird early and speed up the pace of the game. By receiving it quickly, it is more difficult for your opponent to recover from his position and receive your shot again. Thus, changing the game into your favour.

If your opponent is ready for your next shot, this makes them more gullible to your actions and it will be more likely for you deception to work. Deception is only to create an opportunity to attack.

That's how I use deception.
I find players are more prone to deception their feet are not set (late to base).

14. Originally Posted by kklee1517
Personally, from what my coaches told me, you only use deception shots when the opponent is READY for your next shot.
I heard the same thing from my kid's coach.

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