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View Poll Results: Was BWF right to give Lin Dan a wildcard?

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  • Yes - for the good of the game

    85 66.41%
  • No - he hasn't played for 8 months

    38 29.69%
  • Don't know - I can't decide - it's complicated :-(

    5 3.91%
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  1. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Blah blah right blah blah. Yes I hear a lot of about rights but, as the governing body doesn't the BWF have a responsibility to the integrity of the game? Don't they have a responsibility to the players ensure that all players compete on a level playing field where the rules for one are the same for all? There is no greater failure of responsibility on the part of any government or ruling body than the failure to adhere to its own standards and rules.
    I agree, there must be one set of rules for all and a level playing feel. As LCW said,
    its not right that LD keeps on giving walkovers and dissappearing from matches
    and yet qualify - its bad enough thats no action taken against him but then to reward
    him - UNACCEPTABLE!

    Lets see what happens when LD do meet with CL as anticipated, I hoped after
    rewarding him so richly, action will be taken if the match become a fiasco.

  2. #53
    Regular Member nokh88's Avatar
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    BWF screwed up big time.
    Not that badminton was a very popular sport internationally; it has become worse with these decisions.
    Look at the WD Olympic issue. These players are still allowed to compete.
    However, it is still a great recreational sport
    .
    Last edited by nokh88; 08-05-2013 at 08:45 PM.

  3. #54
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Giving wild cards is not new even in the Olympics. So the moral question should not take precedence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_card_(sports)

    "However, in Olympic and World Championship competitions in track and field and swimming, nations are automatically allowed to enter two competitors. Thus these are not wild cards. In some other Olympic sports, such as judo, archery and badminton, wild cards are in use, and they are granted by the respective sport federations. On rare occasions, a competitor who gained entry by wild card succeeds in winning a medal or championship: Kye Sun-Hui won gold in judo at the 1996 Summer Olympics, Ding Junhui won the 2005 China Open snooker championship, and in tennis, Goran Ivanišević won the 2001 Wimbledon Championships and Kim Clijsters won the 2009 US Open."


    So when BWF, the organiser of this "most prestigious badminton tournament"- the WC, gives a wild card to LD, it is within its rights as this is even allowed in the Olympics. This has been in the WC rules for a long time, not just specially for this WC. It is not a matter of "rewarding" an athlete who has been absent from the international scene for 8 months. LD has already won the Olympic and 4 consecutive WC titles before, so this is nothing new to him. It is his ego that tells him he has to prove to the world again despite being unseeded.

    In fact by accepting the wild card, it is incumbent upon LD to get back into acceptable shape in a relatively short time and give his best shot.

    His reputation is at stake and he knows his opposition is tough and eager. He has to beat teammate CL in order to meet his perennial opponent LCW, "if" both survived till the final. LCW is well-prepared but not LD. So LCW should have an excellent chance to take his first international title that has eluded him for years.

    But the question is whether LD could advance further in his not-so-well-prepared condition. He may fall by the wayside and LCW will be happier to meet CL whom he has defeated more times in the past. It is the best badminton action that we want to see before the WC champion is crowned. Can LD still be the best?

    So the "moral" question should not have been brought up to denounce BWF and LD.

    It has not been easy for LD but he managed to show up and won Round 1, which proves indirectly that he "deserves" to be part of this WC which he has won 4 times before as shown below:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BWF_Wor...en.27s_singles

    Below is the list of the most successful players ever, with 3 or more gold medals:
    Rank Player MS WS MD WD XD Total
    1 Park Joo-bong 2 3 5
    2 Gao Ling 3 1 4
    Lin Dan 4 4
    Cai Yun 4 4
    Fu Haifeng 4 4
    3 Ge Fei 2 1 3
    Guan Weizhen 3 3
    Han Aiping 2 1 3
    Huang Sui 3 3
    Kim Dong-moon 1 2 3
    Li Lingwei 2 1 3
    Lin Ying 3 3

    Sorry the Total column is in a mess.
    Last edited by Loh; 08-05-2013 at 09:45 PM.

  4. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Giving wild cards is not new even in the Olympics. So the moral question should not take precedence.
    For every example you can find of a wild card granted there are 10 where wild cards are not given.

    So are we defined by the exception or the rule? If I can show from history one example of a man getting away with murder, is it now fair game to murder?

    Useless link.

    "However, in Olympic and World Championship competitions in track and field and swimming, nations are automatically allowed to enter two competitors. Thus these are not wild cards.
    So mention of it here is useful, how?
    In some other Olympic sports, such as judo, archery and badminton, wild cards are in use, and they are granted by the respective sport federations.

    So out of all the 'sports' in the Olympics you manage to dig up 3 that grant wild cards and the two that you have besides badminton are even more obscure than badminton. So perhaps the BWF should instead of aspiring to the great sports model themselves after the world 'Rock, Paper, Scissors' Association?

    [quote] On rare occasions, a competitor who gained entry by wild card succeeds in winning a medal or championship: Kye Sun-Hui won gold in judo at the 1996 Summer Olympics, Ding Junhui won the 2005 China Open snooker championship [/quote[

    Judo? The China Open of Snooker? Why not include the Shady Acres Lawn Bowling Championship of 1998? Do you have any serious examples.

    Ah Tennis now we are getting somewhere. Now did Ivanisevic get is wildcard after sitting out the previous year of the tour on the beaches of Split or was he active and just didn't have a sufficient ranking and was granted a wild card regardless.


    So when BWF, the organiser of this "most prestigious badminton tournament"- the WC, gives a wild card to LD, it is within its rights as this is even allowed in the Olympics.
    Based on the last Olympics you might want to be real careful about using them as a role model.

    Oh and there's that 'rights' word again. The BWF also has the 'right' to have strippers on the center court in between matches. They have the 'right' to demand that the players wear clown outfits. They have the 'right' to have the player bark like a dog 3 times before being allowed to compete. The issue isn't what their 'rights' are. The issue is what the responsible thing for the BWF to do to preserve what little integrity professional badminton has left.

    I actually have a far bigger problem with the fact that Yu Yang is allowed to take part barely a year since her shameful actions at the OG.

    His reputation is at stake and he knows his opposition is tough and eager.
    Bull$hit, he could lose his next match and it won't hurt his reputation or legacy one iota. I don't know where you people get this nonsense from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Blah blah right blah blah. Yes I hear a lot of about rights but, as the governing body doesn't the BWF have a responsibility to the integrity of the game? Don't they have a responsibility to the players ensure that all players compete on a level playing field where the rules for one are the same for all? There is no greater failure of responsibility on the part of any government or ruling body than the failure to adhere to its own standards and rules.
    Are you disagreeing with the wild card rule itself?
    Or the fact that the wild card was given to LD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hcyong View Post
    Are you disagreeing with the wild card rule itself?
    Or the fact that the wild card was given to LD?
    I am disagreeing with the fact that it was given to Lin Dan for basically slacking off. The proper and responsible use of the Wild Card would be if a player wasn't able to meet the requirements for some legitimate reason. For example if LD had a baby born during the day of one of the required events, had is appendix removed during another or, was diagnosed and treated for some serious illness or injury that made him unable to qualify. Hanging out in China playing pocket pool isn't a legit reason.

  7. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    For every example you can find of a wild card granted there are 10 where wild cards are not given.

    Bull$hit, he could lose his next match and it won't hurt his reputation or legacy one iota. I don't know where you people get this nonsense from.
    You are not LD, you are not BWF, you are not the Olympics nor Wiki, so don't try to place yourself above all of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    You are not LD, you are not BWF, you are not the Olympics nor Wiki, so don't try to place yourself above all of them.
    If you get that from my post then you don't know English and you should stop pretending. There's no shame in failing to comprehend an non native language.

    I commend you for trying. But trying to continue your sharade will only result in you making a bigger fool of yourself.
    Last edited by thunder.tw; 08-05-2013 at 11:30 PM.

  9. #60
    Regular Member nokh88's Avatar
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    ..and the first casualty, unfortunately is :
    Sattawat Pongnairat of USA.
    He might have voted NO if he were a member of Badminton Central.

  10. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    I am disagreeing with the fact that it was given to Lin Dan for basically slacking off. The proper and responsible use of the Wild Card would be if a player wasn't able to meet the requirements for some legitimate reason. For example if LD had a baby born during the day of one of the required events, had is appendix removed during another or, was diagnosed and treated for some serious illness or injury that made him unable to qualify. Hanging out in China playing pocket pool isn't a legit reason.
    I would totally agree with you if BWF gave the wild card to LD for slacking off.

    But, it's more likely they gave the wild card (in spite of LD slacking off) to promote interest (including/especially commercial interest) in this WC. It may not be a noble motive, but this is the world we live in. Money speaks.

    Look, I'm Malaysian and I weep for LCW every time he comes close but not quite there. But I can't dispute the fact if BWF had set out to promote more interest in the event, they did the right thing by giving a wild card to LD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Blah blah right blah blah. Yes I hear a lot of about rights but, as the governing body doesn't the BWF have a responsibility to the integrity of the game? Don't they have a responsibility to the players ensure that all players compete on a level playing field where the rules for one are the same for all? There is no greater failure of responsibility on the part of any government or ruling body than the failure to adhere to its own standards and rules.
    How is the integrity of the game compromised? How are the players not competing on a level playing field? Win a few of these world titles and take a year long break. I'm sure BWF will be more than happy to give you a wildcard as well. And how is BWF not adhering to its own standards and rules when the provision for a wildcard is clearly stated in its rules?

    I am disagreeing with the fact that it was given to Lin Dan for basically slacking off. The proper and responsible use of the Wild Card would be if a player wasn't able to meet the requirements for some legitimate reason. For example if LD had a baby born during the day of one of the required events, had is appendix removed during another or, was diagnosed and treated for some serious illness or injury that made him unable to qualify. Hanging out in China playing pocket pool isn't a legit reason.
    Oh man I just won my second Olympics after being at the peak of world badminton for more than a decade. And then I got married. But no, spending time with my family isn't a legitimate reason for me not competing for almost a year because thunder.tw said so, and he's also apparently the authority on the "proper and responsible use of the wild cards".

    Really, just who do you think you are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hcyong View Post
    I would totally agree with you if BWF gave the wild card to LD for slacking off.
    Well come on you really don't expect the the BWF would actually give the wild card to explicitly for his slacking off? It is in effect what he did there was no legitimate reason for him not to qualify the same way everyone else did.

    But, it's more likely they gave the wild card (in spite of LD slacking off) to promote interest (including/especially commercial interest) in this WC. It may not be a noble motive, but this is the world we live in. Money speaks.
    Ah so if I can show my actions are profitable I now have license to do as I please? The poll didn't ask "Does the BWF have a good excuse" the poll asked "was the BWF Right to grant the wild card". My opinion no it isn't right. Do they have a good excuse? Well that's another question and based on the relative morality of the beholder.

    Look, I'm Malaysian and I weep for LCW every time he comes close but not quite there. But I can't dispute the fact if BWF had set out to promote more interest in the event, they did the right thing by giving a wild card to LD.
    So? Is the game really so frail that it can't withstand the absence of a single player. Then by that logic shouldn't Lin Dan be condemned for the damage he did in not playing on the tour at large. Or, can professional badminton only survive as China's whore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by yamsyams View Post
    How is the integrity of the game compromised?
    Because you are lowering the standard of entery for a single player based on past performance.

    How are the players not competing on a level playing field?
    Is the concept that all the players in order to qualify have to grind it out on tour, travelling, competing dealing with minor injuries and what not while a single player does not. So subtle and complex a concept that it is only able to be grasped by those that possess genius? Or are we just dealing with honest or will full ignorance or just plain stupidity.

    Look it really shouldn't be that hard to grasp.


    Win a few of these world titles and take a year long break.
    Won't work if I win a Stanly Cup, a Super bowl, the world cup of soccer, the world series, the NBA championship. I will still need to play the regular season to make the playoffs.

    I'm sure BWF will be more than happy to give you a wildcard as well. And how is BWF not adhering to its own standards and rules when the provision for a wildcard is clearly stated in its rules?


    A provision is clearly stated and that is not what the debate is. As I've stated ad nauseum, the BWF as the governing body can do what ever it wants and if there isn't a provision already it as the governing body can simply write one, can't it?

    The question is whether the granting of the Wildcard to LD in this case a responsible application of that provision. In my opinion it is not.



    Oh man I just won my second Olympics after being at the peak of world badminton for more than a decade. And then I got married. But no, spending time with my family isn't a legitimate reason for me not competing for almost a year because thunder.tw said so, and he's also apparently the authority on the "proper and responsible use of the wild cards".

    Really, just who do you think you are?
    Cool, you've degrading to raving luancy. Who do I think I am? Well if that has anything to do with this, I am simply a guy with an opinion who when asked, in an internet poll for example, offers that opinion and when challenged can defend that opinion intelligently.

    Who are you? I'm guessing merely one of the legion willing to drop to their knees and open their mouths at every jiggle of Lin Dan's fly.

  14. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Because you are lowering the standard of entery for a single player based on past performance.

    Is the concept that all the players in order to qualify have to grind it out on tour, travelling, competing dealing with minor injuries and what not while a single player does not. So subtle and complex a concept that it is only able to be grasped by those that possess genius? Or are we just dealing with honest or will full ignorance or just plain stupidity.

    Look it really shouldn't be that hard to grasp.

    Won't work if I win a Stanly Cup, a Super bowl, the world cup of soccer, the world series, the NBA championship. I will still need to play the regular season to make the playoffs.
    Perhaps if you actually had an ounce of the intelligence that you claim to possess, you'd look at the whole post instead of dissecting it nonsensically, sentence by sentence, and then pretend to make an argument.

    The point is that the wildcard is available to everyone, provided that they have achieved as much as Lin Dan. You talk about how players should be rewarded with a spot in the WC if they have slogged it out for the qualifying period. Why shouldn't anyone be rewarded with a wildcard if they have slogged it out over a much longer time period and performed at the top consistently?

    I have no idea why you chose to bring in other sports because as I clearly stated, it is BWF who will award outstanding players with a wildcard, and as such the scope of the discussion is within the badminton world. Again, maybe if you had the comprehension skills to process more than one sentence at a time, you would have caught that.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    A provision is clearly stated and that is not what the debate is. As I've stated ad nauseum, the BWF as the governing body can do what ever it wants and if there isn't a provision already it as the governing body can simply write one, can't it?
    So first you berate the BWF for, and I quote, "the failure to adhere to its own standards and rules", when I pointed out that they are indeed following the rules, you turn around and say that hell, they write the rules anyway, so this is a moot point! Make up your mind.

    I agree with you that this isn't about the rule itself, but about the application. You, unfortunately, did not phrase it that way.

    The question is whether the granting of the Wildcard to LD in this case a responsible application of that provision. In my opinion it is not.
    Fair enough. You have your opinions, I have mine.

    Cool, you've degrading to raving luancy. Who do I think I am? Well if that has anything to do with this, I am simply a guy with an opinion who when asked, in an internet poll for example, offers that opinion and when challenged can defend that opinion intelligently.

    Who are you? I'm guessing merely one of the legion willing to drop to their knees and open their mouths at every jiggle of Lin Dan's fly.
    If you didn't use sentences like these, and in general take a holier than thou attitude on basically everything, I'd be happy to simply agree to disagree. I'm sure most others would, as well.

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    The wild card has been granted to Lin Dan and the WC is already in progress, yet some people still can't get over the wild card (which clearly they have no issue with) for Lin Dan (which is what they are so sore about).

    BWF as the world governing sport body have their rights but only to do what is legal,proper and acceptable and popular if possible in a responsible manner towards the promotion,growth and development of the sport and ensuring its good governance in the spirit of fair play and sportsmanship. Just as freedom of speech is a human right doesn't mean you can utter obscenity, commit slander/libel, sedition, copyright violation or encroach upon the rights of others. In other words, BWF is a democratically elected body whose officials act according to legitimate rules and regulations, they are held accountable for their actions, they are constantly under scrutiny and they risk censure and risk being voted out for poor performance or removed from office for serious violations.

    The reasons,grounds and precedents for issuance of wild cards by the various sports bodies/organizations for various players is well-documented and a simple reading of them would be immediately clear to us why Lin Dan fully deserves it in his case, the arguments for it have been so ably and sensibly presented here by several open-minded, unbiased BCers if you care to go over them again.

    So far, the arguments against the wild card to Lin Dan:-

    1) He slacked off for a year, not because he was injured, recovering from serious illness or took time off to give birth. --- So what? Shouldn't players be allowed or even encouraged to take a break as they deem fit for whatever personal reasons. For Lin Dan's case, he's dedicated 12 years of his life to badminton and wishes to spend more quality time with his family to do duty as a filial son, get married, to experience a different kind of life for a while, to think through his career and decide on his future path, or simply to come back fresher,better and stronger after a well-earned rest - it's his entitlement, his God-given right, natural and legal. Don't we all wish, if time and money permit, to take a long break from our regular job, to do the things we love and are passionate about or simply to get away from it all for a while?;

    2) Because of (1) above, Lin Dan shouldn't qualify as his ranking has fallen outside the requirement. --- On the contrary, I argue that's why BWF resorted to using the wild card to overcome the technicality. As we know, BAM as the organizer for the 2005 WC actually issued five wildcards to themselves for players/pairs who couldn't qualify on their own;

    3) It's not a level playing field. -- How so? Where's the logic? A stronger player who is good enough to be invited to any tournament, not to mention a great player, should be denied a wild card while a much weaker or unknown player should be given the chance/privilege to participate?! You mean, we ought to punish Lin Dan for taking the long 'unjustifiable to some people' break whereas mediocre performers deserve better because they never took an 'unacceptable' break and they've been working hard all along. Any objection if the wild card is granted to, say, Lee Hyun-il who retired after the LOG but made a comeback appearance at the Axiata Cup? He'd gladly accept it, I'm sure. Will we be quarrelling over his inclusion here (search your heart)?;....

    I'll stop here for the time being. Hey,the WC is ongoing, let's not distract ourselves, wait until it's over before we come back to it if anybody is still keen, most wouldn't I think.

    Meanwhile, I'd advise anyone debating the issue to refrain from ad hominem arguments, personal attacks and name-calling - you've lost it once you do and I'll probably not dignify you with a reply. Let's observe the rules of engagement for a lively,fruitful exchange of views.

    Right now, a very tense XD match between MJ/XC and the Danish pair with G1 upset win is riveting our attention, mine at least. Now for the rubber!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    Ah so if I can show my actions are profitable I now have license to do as I please?
    Basically, yes. Within the regulatory and legal framework.

    If you have moral qualms over it, then work on strengthening the regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by thunder.tw View Post
    So? Is the game really so frail that it can't withstand the absence of a single player. Then by that logic shouldn't Lin Dan be condemned for the damage he did in not playing on the tour at large. Or, can professional badminton only survive as China's whore?
    I did not say the game is frail. I'm just saying it could benefit from any added interest in it.
    You cannot officially condemn a player for not playing regularly. The player has the right to do so.
    (We can of course condemn him unofficially.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by hcyong View Post
    Are you disagreeing with the wild card rule itself?
    Or the fact that the wild card was given to LD?
    You're right on the spot. In most cases, they have consciously or unconsciously separated the wild card issue from Lin Dan and just zero in on him, forgetting the meaning and purpose of wild cards regardless for commercial reasons (which itself is an important consideration,realistically speaking), acceding to popular demand, for the spirit of the game as in the Olympics, sport promotion, to raise or uphold the stature of the event, and so on and so forth. Mind you, we're not talking about social justice and equality.

    In sports competition, we want to constantly raise standards, for that all the best players in the world have to do their part, not just win accolades for themselves but for the value of sports, eg striving for excellence, how to handle failure, not to give up easily when we lose, towards attaining a sound mind in a healthy body, and suchlike.

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