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  1. #1
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    Default Questions about men double flat play

    Hi
    Me and my partner are playing in men double for one year, and we just got ranked.
    Our opponents are now stronger, and we really need your advices to improve our tactics !
    We know attack or defend, but we have trouble when no team has the attack yet.

    (Sorry for my English, I do my best !)

    Here is what we are doing :

    When we receive short serve, we never lift the shuttle. We mostly drive the shuttle flat to a side.
    Sometime we do a net shot. We do very few pushes, because they often got intercepted.
    *Is it right to drive every short service, or should we try other shots ?
    *Should we aim for the rear player body when we drive ?

    After we receive serve, we nearly always stay in a front and back formation, even if our drive is slightly above net height (20cm/8 inches over net height).
    *Should we better go back in side by side position ?


    When we are serving, the opponent tries to do a push to the side or a drive.
    The rear player blocks the shuttle to the net every time(straight or cross), because this is the shot we know the best. The shot is quite slow, and falls near the net. We do it to force them to lift, but it does not exactly work…

    The opponents are in front and back formation.

    They take the shuttle just under net height, so they can’t kill it but they often can drive/push it again, or do a very tight net shot which is very dangerous.

    So the opponent is driving and driving again to the rearcourt player, while he is blocking and blocking again to the net. And the front court player often wins the dual.
    We could lift the shuttle, but then they would have the attack. And we cannot really drive because the shuttle is under net height.
    *What could we do to avoid this situation ? Is it acceptable to lift the shuttle, or are we giving the attack way too easily ?

    Thanks for your answer !

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    Regular Member Tadashi's Avatar
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    you're right not to lift after service,__
    but you should not drive the shuttle_____
    either, but push it or kill it to the____
    sides, it really depends on how close you
    stand to the net court as a receiver:____
    club players usually worry about the_____
    flick service, but if you are confident_
    about getting the flick serve, you can___
    move closer to the front and push/kill___
    services. NEXT: in driving you better can
    stand side by side, shortening the way of
    the shuttle by creating a wall and_______
    protecting your rearcourt from such______
    drives. the best thing in a drive is a___
    _push to the sides, but typically a block_
    would do it too, 3rd you can drive back__
    but from the midcourt so making the______
    action even faster; final solution, clear
    away. it gets you defensive, but it ends_
    the driving situation for sure.

    I hope this helps,

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    playing a net return is better than playing a drive, at least that is mainly what pros do in super series.
    Last edited by amleto; 06-29-2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: grocer's apostrophe

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    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    As long as the trajectory is downwards, you have nothing to fear; just get ready for the next shot.

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    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    As long as the trajectory is downwards, you have nothing to fear; just get ready for the next shot.
    Yep, any shot whether soft or hard that forces the other side to take it way below net level. Then kill off any loose returns.

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    Some points:

    When receiving serve, play more pushes than drives - you want the rear player to have to come forwards to retrieve the shuttle and take it low.

    The "block" you describe you play, slow and falling near the net, is not a good shot. Anything slow in doubles is usually a bad idea. And, again, you want to get the shuttle AWAY from the net, so that you opponent cannot play at the net. You should push or drive the shuttle.

    You claim you cannot play a drive because the shuttle is below net height - this is wrong. You can! You just need to practice. Remember - drives are not necessarily downwards shots. Some go upwards slightly. As long as you mare ready for the next shot (which will be a drive or a block) then you are ok. Also remember, your shots do not need to be perfect. Aim a foot above the net. That is perfectly good enough, even at a professional standard of play (except net shots which need to be tighter).

    When you are in "driving" rallies, you should be side by side, not front and back. However, you are side by side in an aggressive way! Not defensively. However, this does not apply to a drive return of serve. If you drive the return of serve, then stay front and back (and hunt the net). However, if the rear player has to come forwards to mid court to play a shot, then you should be side by side when they hit the shot (and change positions based on the shot he played).

    In summary: your problems are coming from a belief that you cannot drive the shuttle as it is too low, and the fact you are staying in the front and back formation. By constantly blocking the shuttle, you let your opponents dominate the net. Use drives to push them back, then block the shuttle and have the player who blocked follow into the net, to force the lift.

    Good luck!

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    Thanks for your answers, it is very interesting !

    I have some other questions, because i don't understand everything :

    About return of services :
    -Should we go back in side by side position after we do a push? Even if the rear player will the shuttle under net height ?
    What are the reasons ?
    Maybe it is to return possible interceptions from front player ?

    -We got intercepted a looot when we do pushes. The reason is that the shot is slower than the drive, and that it is hard for us to attack good services.
    Do you have any hint to avoid being intercepted? Like, hide our shot and direction till the last moment ?

    Correct me if i am wrong :
    -Return of services : Pushes and net play. If pushes, we go back in side by side.
    -If they stay in front and back formation, we must do pushes or drives.
    -If they are in side by side, blocks to the net are fine and we go in front and back.
    -If we serve, we start in front and back, and if they pushes or drive, we go back in side by side

    Is it fine ?

    Thanks again for your answers.

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    Hello! Good questions! I will try to answer them...

    How to push return of serve - the key to ensuring it is not intercepted is that you take it EARLY and hit it as soon as you can and simply as you can. If you CAN reach the shuttle, you should have already played the shot by now! Get to the serve earlier, and aim at the tramlines. They will not be able to intercept it. A net shot return is a good alternative if you can't play a good push. So - there is no deception - you must take it early.

    When receiving serve - stay front and back unless it is a bad return of serve (i.e. a lift). Remember - drives are good shots too, but only if you play pushes and net shots as well. Always driving is bad. Always pushing is bad. Always playing net is risky...

    Pushing/driving and formation:
    If you are front and back:
    - if the net player plays a push OR a drive, then stay front and back
    - if the rear court player plays a push OR a drive, then go side by side, but aggressively (crouching, looking to rush forwards to net, or play drives, or go back for a smash)

    If you are side by side (defensively or aggressively):
    - if you play a drive then stay side by side (defensive or offensive depends on the quality of the shot)
    - if you play a push, then whoever pushed should go to the net, and partner should go to the back (i.e. become front and back)

    The reason for the differences (depending on starting side by side or not), is that in order for the rear player to play a push or drive, they should be coming forwards to mid court to play the shot. Because they are coming forwards, their partner should move backwards to midcourt as well to help cover the court as a pair (as the rear player is now vulnerable to flat shots cross court). However, if you are both stationary, then you can hit and move in without too much problem.

    Hopefully that answers your questions?

    Good luck!

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    Thanks a lot for your answer, it will really us !

    Some very last questions :
    If you are in front and back formation, and the rear player does a block to the net (like the one i described earlier), should we keep the front and back formation (the front player covers answers) or go to side by side (the rear players covers answers) ?
    Or maybe we just should never do blocks in this situation ?

    Also, could i send you private messages later if i need help ? You seem to know what you are talking about !

    Thanks again.

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    Another thought about the position after a drive or push return of serve:

    Think about how much time it takes to get back into a "sides" position. Now think about how long you have before the opponent hits the shuttle.

    You don't have enough time to get back. This makes the decision rather simple.

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    Regular Member msitpro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelyanne View Post
    When we receive short serve, we never lift the shuttle. We mostly drive the shuttle flat to a side.
    Sometime we do a net shot. We do very few pushes, because they often got intercepted.
    *Is it right to drive every short service, or should we try other shots ?
    *Should we aim for the rear player body when we drive ?
    Couple of quick comments on service return:

    1. Driving/pushing deep while also giving width to your opponent is very dangerous. Driving at the body is also dangerous but less so.
    2. Pushes just past the front service line should be effective as the server will have to adjust or the rear player has to reach forward (and probably wide).
    3. Accurate net shots that you are able to get to drop around a foot or more below the net tape before the opponent can reach it are also very effective as they will almost always have to lift high as the receiver should then be hovering around the net to intercept an attempted net reply.

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    Regular Member gundamzaku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aelyanne View Post
    Hi
    Me and my partner are playing in men double for one year, and we just got ranked.
    Our opponents are now stronger, and we really need your advices to improve our tactics !
    We know attack or defend, but we have trouble when no team has the attack yet.



    (Sorry for my English, I do my best !)

    Here is what we are doing :

    When we receive short serve, we never lift the shuttle. We mostly drive the shuttle flat to a side.
    Sometime we do a net shot. We do very few pushes, because they often got intercepted.
    *Is it right to drive every short service, or should we try other shots ?
    i think if you can, drive it to the side pass the server but have it land before the back person can reach it. or you can drop it to the side tight by the net.

    *Should we aim for the rear player body when we drive ?
    more often than not i think the rear player will have enough time to react to it. if you must aim for body, aim for the server instead.

    After we receive serve, we nearly always stay in a front and back formation, even if our drive is slightly above net height (20cm/8 inches over net height).
    *Should we better go back in side by side position ?
    this really depends where you'll be hitting the shuttle after the serve. if you lift, of course it's side-side. if you are the one returning a serve with a drop, then you follow the drop and so it's front-back. but if it's a driving game and you are driving and where you are positioned. it's really a tough call.


    When we are serving, the opponent tries to do a push to the side or a drive.
    The rear player blocks the shuttle to the net every time(straight or cross), because this is the shot we know the best. The shot is quite slow, and falls near the net. We do it to force them to lift, but it does not exactly work…
    it would be good for you to explain with more detail then we can see if we have any better suggestions

    The opponents are in front and back formation.

    They take the shuttle just under net height, so they can’t kill it but they often can drive/push it again, or do a very tight net shot which is very dangerous.

    so it's the responsibility of the person who place this shot to anticipate this shot and even move forward if the shot was placed half way down the court or close to the net. if it's a drive to the opponent side and was received and returned from the rear and it's not a lift to you, then be ready for a kill.

    So the opponent is driving and driving again to the rearcourt player, while he is blocking and blocking again to the net. And the front court player often wins the dual.
    i think by this time you're on total defense already and you two should be standing side-side with your rear court player. your rear court player should find a way to at least drive it to another side (and i'm assuming he's just driving it straight), then follow the shot because if your opponent is at the net but have to chase across the court to retrieve your cross court drive, most likely it won't be a hard block, so you can turn it into a counter shot, then force them to lift.

    We could lift the shuttle, but then they would have the attack. And we cannot really drive because the shuttle is under net height.
    an important skill to have is to lift a smash hard enough back to the rear court. many players think that a smash is the last shot of a rally, but in reality, it's purpose is to set your partner up for another kill. to play against opponents with similar skillz and those who are a little better than you, it is a bad idea to think that you can end a rally with a smash, unless it was set up by your partner with another type of offensive shot
    with that said, i think if you can train to have a lift long and high enough from a smash, it would really discourage your opponent.


    *What could we do to avoid this situation ? Is it acceptable to lift the shuttle, or are we giving the attack way too easily ?

    Thanks for your answer !
    hope this helps

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    One question-If the serve is really good, can one make a drive return that is effective? Your drive has to be upward which will be attacked.
    With higher level of play, net shot is more effective. That will force the server to lift your return and you gain attack.
    If the serve is that bad which u can drive down, kill it and game over

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    Quote Originally Posted by nprince View Post
    One question-If the serve is really good, can one make a drive return that is effective? Your drive has to be upward which will be attacked.
    Your assumption is not quite right. Can one make a good drive return? Yes! Absolutely! The key is taking it as early as possible. To say a drive is no longer effective because it is not hit downwards is not true. A drive is a fast and flat shot, played into your opponents rearcourt. A drive that goes slightly upwards is not instantly attackable unless you GIVE it to your opponent. Your goal with a drive is to get it PAST them quicker than they can intercept it, hence you hit it quickly, even if slightly upwards. If you can hit a drive downwards off a serve, that is a net kill, not a drive

    Also, even if the drive starts with an upward trajectory, it does not continue so! You can hit a drive that goes just over the net and then flattens out and goes downwards.

    Remember - by your definition of "attackable" (i.e. going upwards slightly), a net shot is also attackable, because it travels slowly up over the net, where it could be killed by the server. The reality is, a net shot is seen at a high level, because it is a GOOD option (not the only option) and most of the time can be played without being killed, which puts the receiving side in a good position, as the serving side would need to "risk" playing back to the net, or start pushing and driving themselves. Hitting a drive return doesn't so much force a lift, as a driven reply (which is perhaps not preferably to a lift).

    At a professional level, there are VERY FEW servers who have such good serves that it can't be killed by a good returner, and these are generally the great players!

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    Sure lifting is Very forbidden!!! I actual heart that you can get banned for years or even get a fine or go to prison if you do a lift...

    That is also the reason why you should never train return of smash, clearly you will never have the need for it... Especially if the opponent is bad at smash, therefore they will never use it!!!

    Even for the change/surprise effect of it you should never lift, as you can easily loose a point and always go for the single point and not the overall...

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