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  1. #18
    Regular Member Tadashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    I personally think the best way you will get some meaningful data and get a lot of people involved is if we can eliminate one or two variables without having to demand too much from the owner. Suggest you go for
    absolutely, "the demand" must be reduced, what to kill and how to trim the process is key... the "length" is obviously redundant, I guess no one cuts the racket handle; concerning the grip-question, data input stay as broad as possible, data reduction after is always better than before, still weight and balance points are of such great importance, I cannot skip this. if you customise your racket in order to have an effective head-light racket, your swing weight is going to be lower (better), the question is whether people tweak it that way. I would say, I get some sleep and will see what to do about it. Continue the discussion.

  2. #19
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Strings can vary from 2.8g zm62 to 3.6g zm70 and can shift bp by 5-8mm.

    A 7g rkep g09 overgrip will shift bp 10mm.

    So you see, if you want to be quantitative about this , there's really no point comparing any racket unless it's bare dry.
    Last edited by visor; 07-04-2013 at 07:19 PM.

  3. #20
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    its difficult to make proper technical, sensible data,

    but it could be interesting to see the BP and head weights that people are using on their racquets they play with, with everything in.

    not many people stick to the original grip, and even grips have variation, i.e. karakal PU, green was like 19 grams, orange was 17 grams, some other color was 15.98 grams etc.. plus i do not grip the full length, i cut the grip by 6-7 inches. too many contributing factors for variability..

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    Strings can vary from 2.8g zm62 to 3.6g zm70 and can shift bp by 5-8mm.

    A 7g rkep g09 overgrip will shift bp 10mm.

    So you see, if you want to be quantitative about this , there's really no point comparing any racket unless it's bare dry.
    There is a point. By following my earlier suggestion of only accepting results from racquets with “original grip only but with any string”, we can firstly eliminate the influence of the weight of overgrips reducing the BP value. Which hopefully tells us that the change in BP is mainly due to the strings ignoring differences in QC.

    Now, if you had 30 BP entries for a racquet say ranging from 280 to 290, then the higher BPs are probably due to thicker gauge strings and vice versa. But the average of these 30 BPs would have catered for the distribution of thin and thick gauge strings, unless of course, everyone uses the same gauge strings for the same racquet – which is unlikely. But even then, would it really matter? When someone tells you that their Arc10 measures 287mm would you assume your Arc10 with the same strings would measure exactly 287mm? No, because there are so many factors involved. You would probably expect some diversity, so my view is, don’t be too precise about it otherwise you’re missing the point of the exercise which is to plot a point on a graph... but enough to get some meaningful information.

    If you only have a few BPs for each racquet, then maybe it’s not so meaningful. But as the number of entries increase, there will be a convergence towards a common BP or at least an average BP can be interpreted. And that average BP may not be how the racquet came out of the factory, but is a good realistic representation of BPs of “in use” racquets.

    Afterall, very few people who know what we are talking about here, would use a racquet as it came out of the factory.

    Excellent work OP, I think you’ve hit on a great idea!

    If people are still concerned about string weight (I personally don't feel much point) then you could note the string type in your survey as well.

  5. #22
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    just for fun.. i took out my armortec 700s, 2 strung for playing and gripped, 3 for keeping

    Unstrung, ungripped weight, BP and headweight
    91.75g 306mm - 41g
    92.28g 307mm - 40.8g
    89.89g 314mm - 41.4g

    Strung with zm65, gripped with 1x karakal super PU,
    108.3g 298mm - 44.43g
    107.7g 297mm - 44.93g

  6. #23
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    didnt want to unwrap the 4ug5 vt80PG that i had in storage, so here are the measurements of the other 3 that i play with

    Strung, Original Grip + 2 overgrips weight, BP and headweight

    97.65g 300mm 42.90g (4UG4, strung with Nanogy98 0.66mm)
    97.92g 300mm 42.85g (4UG4, strung with Gosen R4x100 0.63mm)
    102.43g 299mm 43.65g (3UG4, strung with 66 Ultimax 0.66mm)

  7. #24
    Regular Member Cycril's Avatar
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    In my opinion, I think the data should be measuring dry weight (no grips or strings attached) to get the optimum data. The grip and string weight is different from everyone. I do think tension changes the weight of the string/racket head because the weight of pre-stretching the string/ is different from the weight of the string being stretched. Why not we just take a ruler and a weighting machine to the nearest sport shop that sells racket and start measuring three since all new rackets(except for the antiques one) are not strung and have dry weight and bp.

  8. #25
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cycril View Post
    In my opinion, I think the data should be measuring dry weight (no grips or strings attached) to get the optimum data. The grip and string weight is different from everyone. I do think tension changes the weight of the string/racket head because the weight of pre-stretching the string/ is different from the weight of the string being stretched. Why not we just take a ruler and a weighting machine to the nearest sport shop that sells racket and start measuring three since all new rackets(except for the antiques one) are not strung and have dry weight and bp.
    Yep.

    And I do measure the dry ones at the store for my data collection purposes. Although there is that pesky grip tape still on, weighing approx 1g and shifting bp by 2mm.

  9. #26
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    There is a point. By following my earlier suggestion of only accepting results from racquets with “original grip only but with any string”, we can firstly eliminate the influence of the weight of overgrips reducing the BP value. Which hopefully tells us that the change in BP is mainly due to the strings ignoring differences in QC.
    I understand. And leaving the string on also makes it easier to collect more data points. However it should be specifically stated string or not, and what string.

    Definitely no overgrip or factory grip removal, as it would have too much confounding effect on bp and total wt.

  10. #27
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    @vajrasatvva
    Holy macolies! Those are some high head wt rackets. No wonder you have a sore shoulder. Your FB head wt is probably only 32.6g dry in comparison.

  11. #28
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    Just string with stock grip is fair cause not all of us have the patience to buy an unstrung racket, take it home, do measurements and then take it to get strung .

    And definitely no stock grip removal. I picked up a Legend II on a trade and it had a towel grip on the bare wood and with bare wood, the BP was either 333mm or 335mm. I'm waiting on some Victor replacement grips to arrive so I can get a better measurement. The only RKEP replacement grips I have are the King Grips and they weigh 19 grams!

  12. #29
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vajrasattva View Post
    just for fun.. i took out my armortec 700s, 2 strung for playing and gripped, 3 for keeping
    Quote Originally Posted by vajrasattva View Post

    Unstrung, ungripped weight, BP and headweight
    91.75g 306mm - 41g
    92.28g 307mm - 40.8g
    89.89g 314mm - 41.4g

    Strung with zm65, gripped with 1x karakal super PU,
    108.3g 298mm - 44.43g
    107.7g 297mm - 44.93g
    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    @vajrasatvva
    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    Holy macolies! Those are some high head wt rackets. No wonder you have a sore shoulder. Your FB head wt is probably only 32.6g dry in comparison.
    And calls for some more detail , they sound like the Dragons?

    In any case I agree with R20190 on the string weight. For a range of 0.5gr. and the purpose of this topic it's not a very significant difference. Furthermore if we stick to middle of the U range for weight, take 3 or 3.5gr. for strings so say 3U = 87.5gr unstrung and 91gr. strung then we can attribute all extra weight to grip modifications, unless we have some of those with athletic tape and other cr*p on it .

    But I guess to keep it simple as, a strung or unstrung with only stock grip should get enough data points. I don't think the stock grip is all that heavy btw, think I still have one ArcSaber grip lying around and iirc it only weighs ~8gr.
    Last edited by demolidor; 07-05-2013 at 04:14 PM.

  13. #30
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Let me correct that into: the purpose of creating a racket chart

  14. #31
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Not sure if you have sorted out what details you want added yet with regard to condition of the racket before weighing but these are all with factory grip only and bg65ti stringed. For this reason I have not input them on your site @tadhashi but have left you the detail below for your use.

    RACKET NAME WEIGHT LENGTH BP FLEX
    VOLTRIC 80 91g 680 310 3(55mm)
    ARCSABER Z SLASH 88g 680 303 4(58mm)
    ARCSABER 11 91g 680 306 3(54mm)
    VOLTRIC Z FORCE 91g 680 320 2(53mm)
    VOLTRIC Z FORCE LTD 91g 680 320 2(53mm)
    VOLTRIC 70 88g 680 307 3(55mm)
    FLASHBOOST 76g 680 297 4(59mm)
    NANORAY 800 92g 680 292 2(53mm)
    NANORAY 700RP 88g 680 299 3(54mm)
    ARCSABER I SLASH 91g 680 287 5(61mm)
    ARCSABER 9FL 88g 680 303 5(60mm)
    NANORAY 600 86g 680 294 5(60mm)
    VOLTRIC 60 87g 680 304 5(60mm)
    NANORAY 700FX 88g 680 300 4(58mm)
    NANORAY 600 86g 680 294 5(60mm)
    VOLTRIC 50 93g 680 314 3(56mm)
    NANORAY 500 87g 680 300 4(58mm)
    ARCSABER 7 91g 680 306 4(57mm)
    ARCSABER 8DX 91g 680 302 4(58mm)
    NANORAY 300 88g 680 292 4(58mm)
    ARMORTEC 900P 89g 680 313 3(54mm)

  15. #32
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    Not sure if you have sorted out what details you want added yet with regard to condition of the racket before weighing but these are all with factory grip only and bg65ti stringed. For this reason I have not input them on your site @tadhashi but have left you the detail below for your use.

    RACKET NAME WEIGHT LENGTH BP FLEX
    VOLTRIC 80 91g 680 310 3(55mm)
    ARCSABER Z SLASH 88g 680 303 4(58mm)
    ARCSABER 11 91g 680 306 3(54mm)
    VOLTRIC Z FORCE 91g 680 320 2(53mm)
    VOLTRIC Z FORCE LTD 91g 680 320 2(53mm)
    VOLTRIC 70 88g 680 307 3(55mm)
    FLASHBOOST 76g 680 297 4(59mm)
    NANORAY 800 92g 680 292 2(53mm)
    NANORAY 700RP 88g 680 299 3(54mm)
    ARCSABER I SLASH 91g 680 287 5(61mm)
    ARCSABER 9FL 88g 680 303 5(60mm)
    NANORAY 600 86g 680 294 5(60mm)
    VOLTRIC 60 87g 680 304 5(60mm)
    NANORAY 700FX 88g 680 300 4(58mm)
    NANORAY 600 86g 680 294 5(60mm)
    VOLTRIC 50 93g 680 314 3(56mm)
    NANORAY 500 87g 680 300 4(58mm)
    ARCSABER 7 91g 680 306 4(57mm)
    ARCSABER 8DX 91g 680 302 4(58mm)
    NANORAY 300 88g 680 292 4(58mm)
    ARMORTEC 900P 89g 680 313 3(54mm)
    Must be from Direct Sports? 680mm?
    I think you can fill them in as strings only but I'd leave out the flex of the ones you have not used and change the length to 675 or 674 ... Some measurements are wildly different from ones reported here but I guess with enough entries it should not be a problem.
    Last edited by demolidor; 07-07-2013 at 07:19 AM.

  16. #33
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    Must be from Direct Sports? 680mm?
    I think you can fill them in as strings only but I'd leave out the flex of the ones you have not used and change the length to 675 or 674 ... Some measurements are wildly different from ones reported here but I guess with enough entries it should not be a problem.
    Sorry I just assumed racket length Just measured four of them all 675 so I am assuming that is the length of all, so if that can be corrected.

    Yeah you are right I lifted the measurements from direct sport. I buy my rackets from them and their measurements are always spot on. I know this because I have checked it out whenever I have bought a racket. For an unrelated reason I have also weighed these rackets and bp'd them(from yonex stall at uk tourney) and these measurements are correct apart from the flashbooost was not there but I am assuming if they measure every other one spot on then why would they get that wrong??

    What measurements are wildly different?? I lifted them because I take original grip off and replace with towel grip, this changes the racket severely, for instance my weight of ZFORCE goes to 99.5grams and bp 212 but the figure originally stated was correct before grip change.

    I will say, I have a couple of SPcoded rackets and they are both on the lightest end of the u range, in uk all rackets I have received/measured are on the heaviest tip of the u range. Maybe that's why difference? I have tried all of the rackets above and concur with the accurate measurements of the said website with regards to flex.

    I have not entered them in at the site, it would take to long sorry but if I did most of my rackets end up about 100g in weight so seems to me like the measurements entered should be factory grip and strings only for good feedback.
    Last edited by craigandy; 07-07-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  17. #34
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    I think the majority is pretty spot on. I entered a Z-Slash yesterday at 301mm and 93gr. (handle still in plastic) for example but for something like the FB, that stood out at the time I read it on their website shortly after release, Visor measured it dry at ~300mm and Direct have it at 292 strung? That is a pretty massive difference and I can hardly imagine what I-Slash at 287mm must feel like, that's about 277mm dry.
    But you're right, it's hardly rocket science so must be true measurements and if either was an anomaly it should get filtered out with enough data entries so no big deal. Just happened to have seen some of their recent squash racket measurements and they were clearly manufacturers specs which are well known to be completely rubbish but maybe it has been updated by now as they were pretty new models at the time.

    Looking for my ArcSaber stock grip so I can enter 8DX ... it was ~300mm strung with BG65 and stock grip (no plastic) but had since modified the grip. Now that it's unstrung I can restore it to nekkid state (guestimating ~290 bp)
    Last edited by demolidor; 07-07-2013 at 02:44 PM.

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