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  1. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekeze View Post
    The extension/flexion jargon isn't always so clear (I need a diagram), but I think this guys video is making about the same point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiYgo6GD_DU.
    Its difficult to talk about the movement of joints without using the exact words needed to describe the movement of the joint, I agree. Some like to use the word "cock" for extension, and "uncock" for returning to neutral OR flexion, which is unnecessarily confusing.

    You are right - the video you showed says the same thing I said - players DO use wrist flexion, and then the wrist returns to neutral as you play your stroke.

  2. #19
    Regular Member Tadashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ezekeze View Post
    The extension/flexion jargon isn't always so clear (I need a diagram
    For a diagram: check page 13 of pdf. Little wording and everyday words (like pitch) you find on p12 before.

    It 's simple to memorise if you think about your fingers. In a fist, you basically flex, so flexion of the hand is like the flexion of the fingers. But have a look on the photos ... (btw Google is an invention about 15 years old)

    https://diuf.unifr.ch/main/diva/site...ir_Doswald.pdf

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingu View Post
    When I started out badminton, my team mates always told me to use the forearm pronation for the basic overhead strokes. However, when I went back from Japan and joined a team in Sweden, the coach there (who is a very good coach, but a bit older) told me to use wrist instead of forearm pronation for my overhead strokes.
    However, after talking to our new coach as well as during my lessons I took for coaching cert. that the wrist technique that some people talk about was the "old technique" for power and overhead strokes, while the new one is forearm pronation. Zhao Jian Hua for an example was and still is a great badminton player. However, he is of the "older generation" so to speak. You have to remember that badminton is constantly evolving. An example of the power stroke we are talking about, watch the video of Yonex new Nanoray Z-speed campaign. You can see Lee Chong Wei's stroke very clearly and there is no wrist in that smash. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpD2QKpcJvc right at the beginning).

    Of course, you still use your wrist, as visor suggest, for some angles that you just can't produce with only your forearm. Not to mention shots such as stick smashes, lifts and pushes. For the latter to you can't just rely on your forearm as that would be very unnatural and will not produce enough power and stability

    Badminton is much more than fixated techniques. You have to use all kinds of techniques to produce different kinds of shots. You can't just rely on forearm pronation all the time, you also have to take into consideration that by using your wrist can also produce a different kind of shot, and in many case give power and stability as well.

    That being said, for overhead and power strokes, by converting to forearm pronation you will not be able to hit the shuttle at the "highest point" anymore as you obviously bend your arm a bit in order to make effective use of the pronation. In contrast, wrist technique lets you take the shuttle a tad earlier, but instead you will suffer loss in power.
    Hello Wingu!

    I'm a new user here and would like ask some questions about forehand technique. By reading your comments I think you will understand my problem. Other users are free to reply as well, I appreciate everyone's insight and comment.

    So I consider myself a beginner/intermidiate player. I started playing regularly in early 2012 and after half a year of playing I decided I want to compete and started to play a lot more than I used to, 5-6 times a week. That was of course a horrible idea bearing in mind I didn't master the basics.

    Over the time I had been playing I developed wrong technique of hitting the ball, using little if any pronation of the arm. Instead, I used the 'wrist snap' (wrist flexion) in every overhead shot I made. This lead to a serious elbow injury in November 2012, that was diagnosed as medial epicondylitis (golfer's elbow). It kept me away from badminton as long as 8 months.

    During the time I haven't been able to play I have had time to watch a ton of badminton matches and videos as well as read helpful guides etc. Now I am aware of the pronation and supination concept, I have picked up a coach and my technique is improved. However, I still got some problems unlearning the bad habits.

    Last year, before the injury, I was told to always hit the shuttle at the highest point. So my hitting action was like this: straigthen my arm, reach as high as I can and flex the wrist. I had the correct forehand grip so to be able to reach as high as possible, I had to bend my wrist sideways (ulnar deviation). I think the wrist flexion + ulnar deviation were the main reasons for the injury.

    Is it correct that the basic forehand strokes are hit with no wrist movement (=keeping the wrist in neutral position during the whole hitting action)?

    Let me put it this way: If you think the racket as a hand of a clock, where should the racket point when I hit the shuttle? If try to reach as high as possible, the racket would point straight up, at 12 o'clock. Is this incorrect? When hitting a drive, the racket points at 12 o'clock and it is easy to pronate the forearm without moving the wrist. But when I hit the shuttle above my shoulder level and keep the racket pointing straight up, the pronation feels harder to execute and I tend to snap the wrist.

    So basically my question here is, does the racket ever be in 12 o'clock position when hitting an above shoulder level shot? Or would it always be pointing at 11/10 o'clock?

    Best regards,
    Metaphor

  4. #21
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    ^ The keyword is "comfortably".

    Hit it at the highest point... comfortably. None of your wrist, elbow, shoulder joints should be fully extended to reach the shuttle, or else you'll get injuries.

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    ^ The keyword is "comfortably".

    Hit it at the highest point... comfortably. None of your wrist, elbow, shoulder joints should be fully extended to reach the shuttle, or else you'll get injuries.
    Yes, "comfortably" is indeed the keyword. I felt like my hitting improved tenfold by doing one adjustment: I lowered the contact point a little. I think it was a problem for me before, that I tried to hit the shuttle too high, forearm almost fully extended. I feel a lot more relaxed when I hit the shuttle a bit lower. Is this correct?

  6. #23
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Yes, "comfortably" is indeed the keyword. I felt like my hitting improved tenfold by doing one adjustment: I lowered the contact point a little. I think it was a problem for me before, that I tried to hit the shuttle too high, forearm almost fully extended. I feel a lot more relaxed when I hit the shuttle a bit lower. Is this correct?
    Yep, it should be relaxed ie comfortable.

    Next thing you got to work on is a little jump to get a higher contact point. Then as your timing improves, keep increasing the height of your jump and you'll eventually get to a good jump smash.

  7. #24
    Regular Member Wingu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Hello Wingu!

    I'm a new user here and would like ask some questions about forehand technique. By reading your comments I think you will understand my problem. Other users are free to reply as well, I appreciate everyone's insight and comment.

    So I consider myself a beginner/intermidiate player. I started playing regularly in early 2012 and after half a year of playing I decided I want to compete and started to play a lot more than I used to, 5-6 times a week. That was of course a horrible idea bearing in mind I didn't master the basics.

    Over the time I had been playing I developed wrong technique of hitting the ball, using little if any pronation of the arm. Instead, I used the 'wrist snap' (wrist flexion) in every overhead shot I made. This lead to a serious elbow injury in November 2012, that was diagnosed as medial epicondylitis (golfer's elbow). It kept me away from badminton as long as 8 months.

    During the time I haven't been able to play I have had time to watch a ton of badminton matches and videos as well as read helpful guides etc. Now I am aware of the pronation and supination concept, I have picked up a coach and my technique is improved. However, I still got some problems unlearning the bad habits.

    Last year, before the injury, I was told to always hit the shuttle at the highest point. So my hitting action was like this: straigthen my arm, reach as high as I can and flex the wrist. I had the correct forehand grip so to be able to reach as high as possible, I had to bend my wrist sideways (ulnar deviation). I think the wrist flexion + ulnar deviation were the main reasons for the injury.

    Is it correct that the basic forehand strokes are hit with no wrist movement (=keeping the wrist in neutral position during the whole hitting action)?

    Let me put it this way: If you think the racket as a hand of a clock, where should the racket point when I hit the shuttle? If try to reach as high as possible, the racket would point straight up, at 12 o'clock. Is this incorrect? When hitting a drive, the racket points at 12 o'clock and it is easy to pronate the forearm without moving the wrist. But when I hit the shuttle above my shoulder level and keep the racket pointing straight up, the pronation feels harder to execute and I tend to snap the wrist.

    So basically my question here is, does the racket ever be in 12 o'clock position when hitting an above shoulder level shot? Or would it always be pointing at 11/10 o'clock?

    Best regards,
    Metaphor
    Hi,

    12 o'clock is where you want to hit the shuttle, but when you were told that you are supposed to hit the shuttle at the "highest point", you should probably think of it as "highest point possible" with the right technique rather "highest point my body is able to reach". As I wrote in my post, it's impossible to extend your arm fully for a correct forearm pronation overhead shot. And as visor stressed, it's important to be comfortable. And no, I don't think you should stop using your wrist even if you are using forearm pronation for overhead. If you lift your arm and imagine you're gripping a racket and then let your wrist rest in it's original state, you'll notice that if you do that, your racket will basically be in line with your shoulders, as in almost completely horizontal. You need to angle your wrist some upwards, otherwise you won't be able to reach a high contact point. Also, I would recommend to use your wrist slightly to increase power right at the impact.

    Another important thing is not to be lazy and only use your arm. You want to insert your whole body if possible, otherwise you will have to rely too much on only your arm. When I was a beginner, I used to basically only use my arm in my deep forehand corner, but that resulted in me getting pains in my upper arm and shoulder.

  8. #25
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    Thank you for answering.

    I have learned my new technique from this video, which you have probably already seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNVC5PVJyPQ. It is clear that the racket is not pointing straight up (12 o'clock) when contacting the shuttle. Is Jimmy Lin's technique 100% correct? If I want to reach a higher contact point I have to bend my wrist outwards (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...rBw89qasM-j_Zw) but it doesn't feel natural and I am worried it might damage my elbow again.

    So is the racket like this: http://www.clker.com/cliparts/1/1/1/...01.svg.med.png

    Or this: http://www.badmintondoubles.com/wp-c...er-Z-Slash.jpg

    In the first picture the racket is pointing at 11 o'clock and in the second one it's pointing at 12 o'clock. Does it depend from the situation? If so, can you explain when the racket has to be in the latter and when in the former position. Sorry for being so pedantic but I really don't want to get injured again because of a bad technique.

  9. #26
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    If you're doing a power smash from the back, you can't and should not use that 12 o'clock position. It must be 11 o'clock or so. Btw that slanted racket pic is more like pointing at 10 not 11.

  10. #27
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNNM5XRa5DM

    I tend to smash using more wrist, as demonstrated in this video. During the slow motion, would Zhao's racket be more in the 12 o ' clock position or in the 10-11' o clock position

  11. #28
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    considering your arm will not be vertical, having your racket vertical like 5:37 in that vid is fine. It looks like there is a bit of ulnar deviation used to get that angle - ulnar deviation will better for accuracy, worse for power due to how it interacts with pronation.

  12. #29
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    So, last night I played and I think I have way more power now. I am pretty impressed. To understand my situation you need to know my history.

    2 years ago
    I used to do only pronation to smash. I had ok power but no control. I think i used to slice the bird a lot and when the bird is on my backhand side and I used the overhead smash using a big scissors kick, i used to get more power that way because I didn't slice the bird. I always had problems smashing on my forehand side.

    Last Year
    I got about 5 lessons from Lee Jae Bok and I started to know about wrist. I was very impressed and I thought I was getting a lot more power (it's all relative, I mean more power than before consistently, keep in mind, I said consistently). I think I wasn't slicing the bird. I watched his videos over and over again. And personal one and one lesson from Lee helped me to get the wrist smash working better. I didn't know about the wrist at all before. I thought we are only supposed to use pronation. Anyone here tried Lee's method to smash and can you get a lot of power from it? I am curious is someone else has tried this method and what's their thought on this.

    After reading this thread and researching few videos on the internet I think I am getting it. Here is how I learned.


    1. Wrist Movement
    2. Smash Snap

    (The sound he generates at 3:40 and pre-load position is very very important, to feel the arc and pull). One important thing I learned or at least worked for me is to from the side way position, I turn my hip, and that creates a tension to my core, chest, shoulder and arm (I only move my hip and feel that tension and rest kind of follows). I only focus to turn my hip and be very relaxed, by turning my hip I get the natural body rotation. It generates the pull to turn my core, chest, shoulder and arm. I get some added power from this. And this is very surprising when I experienced this first time. It's hard to explain without a video. I was very confused when people talked about transferring power from your legs to hip to core .... all the way to arm, wrist, hand, finger and racket. So, in the beginning I only focused starting my power from hip (by turning my hip first to get to the preload position) and oh boy I tell you, I can get lot more power. I can effortlessly do a super high clear without trying to swing fast, the next thing I tried was to jump up from my racket leg (without any bird) and get my hip to move. My goal was to add the leg power to it. I still can't do a high jump smash but I jump my leg up (3 to5 inches) to get power from it, (the goal is not angle, it is power, may be later I can jump higher when I am used to the timing). I practiced it many times in front of a mirror. Watching this video and trying to get to the preload position. So, I jump up and turn my hip (thatís the only thing I think in my head) and get to the preload. Thatís all I practice at home and it does help a lot on the court. Once you are comfortable with the preload. I think I have still a long way to go but discovering power from leg and my hip is great.

    3. The whole body rotation
    4. Something else to look at

    One thing I noticed though using the wrist and pronation combined i get way more control on the shot, placing, angle, smashing on the line. I think it is very important to know the wrist. Also using the wrist I can do a punch clear without any swing at all and people don't usually expect that kind of shots. I know people said this over and over on this thread that the combination is important for control and it is very true.

    Question: I would like someone to clarify a bit what Peter is doing at 3:40 on the second video.

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