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  1. #35
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    Default Sense of the project / cooperation

    I would like to divide the answer to your post in 2 parts:

    The use of the SBS test In general:

    Now, for a lot of people it's not practical to go over all these variables to get a racket strung well. So in this sense, introducing a new variable "SBS" that combines all these factors int one simple and understandable number would be quite a good idea.
    For this reason the SBS is widely used in tennis, it makes it easy for players and stringers. The players just ask for a certain sbs and they can check the playability of the stringbed by measuring the sbs test after playing with the string bed.

    The SBS test can offer the following information:
    - A stringer can check the “accuracy” of himself and his machine.
    - To measure the loss of tension after stringing and after playing with different strings.
    - To test the “sweetspot” size of stringjob.
    ( A stringbed is always stiffer at the side were the stringer started with the cross strings)
    - The relation between certain strings and the best stringing tensions. In our tennis-system we never combine stretchy strings with high SBS.
    It is much better to string a stiffer string at lower tension than a stretchy string at high tension.
    The stretchy string will lose a lot of tension during stringing already.

    The sense of measuring stiffness of the shaft and of the stringbed in our badminton project:

    We started our badminton project because some “innovative” badminton stringers in the Netherlands want to understand more about the playability of a badminton racquet.
    The combination of the low stiffness shaft with the sbs that goes up more and more is very interesting to analyse.

    Things that we want to find out are:

    - The relation between playability and sbs.
    - The relation between stringing tension and SBS, so that we can make a Tension Advisor for badminton.
    - The influence on the playability of different combinations of shaft-stiffness and sbs.
    - The sense of these high tensions?
    - A classification of badminton strings.

    It would be our ideal when we can cooperate on these items with some very dedicated stringers / players on this forum.

  2. #36
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    Hereby a little more information about the cooperation that we seek and the offer that we make.

    There are 3 main objectives in the project:

    1. To create a Tension Advisor for badminton, which translates the stringing stiffness into Stringing result (stringbed stiffness), for different head-sizes, number of strings and types of strings.

    2. To classify badminton strings like we do for tennis, and couple the Tension Advisor to the different classes of strings.

    3. To find the influence of stringed stiffness and stiffness of the shaft on the playability of the racquet. Finding best combinations of shaft stiffness + sbs seems important also.

    If we want to create a good basis for this we need feed back from a number of stringers / players so that we can enter the data that they supply into a data bank.

    We offer the Stringlab 2 test system for a very special price to those who want to participate.

    We already have some known badminton stringers on our list who will be contacted soon.

    Please let me know if you are interested.

  3. #37
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    I think this is an interesting project, so this is definitely something I'm interested in. I was planning to create my own tools to measure things such as tension/stiffness, flexibility, balance point, swing weight, etc. but I'd much rather participate in an existing project than start my own as I'm being flooded with rackets to string at the store..

  4. #38
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    If those who are interested in participating can send an email to stringway.fred@gmail.com we will contact them directly about a proposal for the participation.

    Thanks

  5. #39
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    For those who are interested to participate in the project.
    The picture shows the test unit for badminton, to measure SBS and shaft stiffness.
    The transparent disc takes care that only the string bed deflects.

    The price for the unit will be lower than the introduction offer on our site. The quantity for those who want to cooperate in the project is limited.

    Last edited by stringtechno; 11-11-2013 at 11:12 AM.

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by yan.v View Post
    I've never heard of pre-stretch NOT being used from people that have it on their machine.

    Only exceptions seem to be for very high tensions where manual pre-stretch is used.
    I never use it unless requested. ES5 Pro Machine

  7. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringtechno View Post
    Hi guys,

    We would appreciate to get some more info from you about this:

    - Do you think that it makes sense to check the string bed of badminton racquets, or is this less important than in tennis?

    - At what loss of tension does a badminton player want a restring?
    Tennis players 20 % loss of tension does not feel good anymore for most players.

    - Is there any other testing method that is used except listing to the sound of the string bed after hitting it?

    Thanks for supporting our “project”.
    I dont think string bed stiffness is important in badminton. Unfortunately at the professional level most players dont care about string jobs and are just happy to get their rackets strung. For tennis, players pay for their string jobs and expect the highest quality string jobs, consistancy being a major necessity. This looks like an awesome gizmo for the rec/tech player but at the professional level, I dont think they would bother with it. At the professional level they have up to 20 rackets in their bag, badminton people in general are CHEAP, and are always looking for a good deal, not understanding the quality of machines. I lose many customers because they think my stringing prices are too expensive, they would rather waste a gallon of gas to save $2USD and string at a club where they have untrained high schoolers learning how to string.
    As for the pinging sound method to GUESS string tension, having a figure between 20-30 is easier to guess than 40-65ish (Tennis). I do use an ERT for tennis and have tried for badminton, but again for Badminton players they want to be economical, and are just happy to have someplace to play and a racket to play with.
    I am interested in trying out your machine. I have talked to the Gonz and has spoke highly about it.

  8. #42
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    I made a mistake wanted to link to a comment
    Last edited by kakinami; 11-14-2013 at 03:19 PM.

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerby View Post
    I think this is quite an interesting way to look at it. To my knowledge there're several factors that influence the 'feel' of your stringjob:
    1) the racket it is strung in, stiffness of the frame and stringing pattern
    2) stringtension
    3) stringingpattern and stringing practise (type of machine, way it is strung)
    4) type of string (stretchy or stiff, thick of thin)

    Now, for a lot of people it's not practical to go over all these variables to get a racket strung well. So in this sense, introducing a new variable "SBS" that combines all these factors int one simple and understandable number would be quite a good idea. (Much like a Von Mises yield criterion in engineering).
    However, the question to be asked is then: does an indention-test cover all these different factors?

    I usually play with bg80 (0.68mm) or an apacs string of 0.67mm at 31lbs. Now theoretically I could string bg65 or 65titanium (0.70mm) at at tension higher than 31lbs to get the same "SBS". These thicker stretchier string would be just as stiff.
    However, no matter how high I string 65 or 65ti, they still feel different, even if the SBS would be the same (I tried 31-34lbs).
    So how can SBS be used to solve this problem?
    I dont think the machine is used to solve problems, just help be consistant with your string jobs. I use an ERT while stringing tennis rackets, and while stringing for professional tennis players, it helps us remain consistant with our string jobs. If the ERT number is off then either the machine is off or stringers error. If you are stringing for customers, I think it is a great way for them to come back and say, I love the way this racket played when you first strung it. You have all your data from the first racket, and you match on the second and then you have a happy customer coming back again and again.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by stringtechno View Post
    Hereby a little more information about the cooperation that we seek and the offer that we make.

    There are 3 main objectives in the project:

    1. To create a Tension Advisor for badminton, which translates the stringing stiffness into Stringing result (stringbed stiffness), for different head-sizes, number of strings and types of strings.

    2. To classify badminton strings like we do for tennis, and couple the Tension Advisor to the different classes of strings.

    3. To find the influence of stringed stiffness and stiffness of the shaft on the playability of the racquet. Finding best combinations of shaft stiffness + sbs seems important also.

    If we want to create a good basis for this we need feed back from a number of stringers / players so that we can enter the data that they supply into a data bank.

    We offer the Stringlab 2 test system for a very special price to those who want to participate.

    We already have some known badminton stringers on our list who will be contacted soon.

    Please let me know if you are interested.
    If you want UK Stringers, Tim Willis and Mark Lawrence are probably the best I know of. They have Facebook =)

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerby View Post
    I think this is quite an interesting way to look at it. To my knowledge there're several factors that influence the 'feel' of your stringjob:
    1) the racket it is strung in, stiffness of the frame and stringing pattern
    2) stringtension
    3) stringingpattern and stringing practise (type of machine, way it is strung)
    4) type of string (stretchy or stiff, thick of thin)

    Now, for a lot of people it's not practical to go over all these variables to get a racket strung well. So in this sense, introducing a new variable "SBS" that combines all these factors int one simple and understandable number would be quite a good idea. (Much like a Von Mises yield criterion in engineering).
    However, the question to be asked is then: does an indention-test cover all these different factors?

    I usually play with bg80 (0.68mm) or an apacs string of 0.67mm at 31lbs. Now theoretically I could string bg65 or 65titanium (0.70mm) at at tension higher than 31lbs to get the same "SBS". These thicker stretchier string would be just as stiff.
    However, no matter how high I string 65 or 65ti, they still feel different, even if the SBS would be the same (I tried 31-34lbs).
    So how can SBS be used to solve this problem?
    I dont think the machine is used to solve problems, just help be consistant with your string jobs. I use an ERT while stringing tennis rackets, and while stringing for professional tennis players, it helps us remain consistant with our string jobs. If the ERT number is off then either the machine is off or stringers error. If you are stringing for customers, I think it is a great way for them to come back and say, I love the way this racket played when you first strung it. You have all your data from the first racket, and you match on the second and then you have a happy customer coming back again and again.

  12. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kakinami View Post
    I never use it unless requested. ES5 Pro Machine
    That's interesting. I'd tend to do the opposite since people seem to like it better with prestretch on. The tension is a little more accurate and tends to stay at the same level longer. Of course, 90% of my string jobs are under 25lbs.

    Maybe people that want higher tensions like to not have prestretch on so that they can say they play at 30lbs when really it's more like 27-28lbs. :P

  13. #47
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    Hi guys,

    Interesting discussion about prestretch.
    Would it not be a nice item to involve in the project and actually measure the effect and know for which strings prestretch makes sense and for which not at all?

    Because prestretch changes the playability of the string it is very important to know the stretch figures of a string before you decide to prestretch:

    With very stiff string (like the Yonex BG80), with little remaining elongation, it makes no sense at all, while it will make a big difference for a stretchy string (like the Ashaway Micro Leg XL).


  14. #48
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    The funny thing is IMO that you illustrate the importance of doing the suggested project together.
    I think that it might be good to tell more about the objectives of the project:

    - Testing the new Stringlab 2 is NOT the objective of the project!
    The system has been tested extensively during the last couple of months and if the results would not have been so very good we would not have started a production series.

    The objectives of the project are:
    - Finding the relation between stringing tensions and SBS for badminton (like our Tension Advisor for tennis).
    - Finding the relation between playability and SBS in badminton.
    - Finding the relation between stiffness of the shaft and SBS. Or finding the influence of very stiff string beds in combination with the very low stiffness shafts.
    - Finding the relation between Swing Weight of the racquet and SBS.
    - Finding the relation between elongation properties of different strings and the loss of tension and playability of the stringbed.
    To find these relations we need a SBS testing tool, and the elongating figures of more badminton strings. Both are available now.
    To be able to find these relations we need stringing info from as many stringers as possible.
    That is why we ask people on this forum to participate and why we offer the Testing system for a very attractive price to the ones who participate. ( We will put the offer on the forum later today).
    In the meantime we are in contact with the Dutch Badminton Ass and the Dutch Coaches in order to launch articles about this item and to demonstrate the tests on national badminton events.

    The interest of both seems very promising.

  15. #49
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    Hereby the offer for those who want to participate in the project:
    Participants in the project who want to participate in the ‘research project’ can get the Stringlab 2 under “agent conditions”.
    This means:
    - The Stringlab 2 is supplied for the introduction price that counts for our Agents.
    Test unit $166,90
    Racquet stiffness frame $55,83
    Badminton support ring $12,17

    These prices are excluding freight which depends on the country.

    Sales prices for the next series are:
    Test unit $242,94
    Racquet stiffness frame $77,87
    Badminton support ring $20,28


    - The participants can act as agent as long as they participate in the project. This means that they can buy more units directly or later for for agent prices, with discount for larger quantities. They can sell these to other badminton stringers.

    - The offer only counts for Stringlab 2 units from the first series. We have about 20 units of the first series available the rest of the series has been ordered already.

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kakinami View Post
    I dont think string bed stiffness is important in badminton. Unfortunately at the professional level most players dont care about string jobs and are just happy to get their rackets strung. For tennis, players pay for their string jobs and expect the highest quality string jobs, consistancy being a major necessity. This looks like an awesome gizmo for the rec/tech player but at the professional level, I dont think they would bother with it. At the professional level they have up to 20 rackets in their bag, badminton people in general are CHEAP, and are always looking for a good deal, not understanding the quality of machines. I lose many customers because they think my stringing prices are too expensive, they would rather waste a gallon of gas to save $2USD and string at a club where they have untrained high schoolers learning how to string.
    As for the pinging sound method to GUESS string tension, having a figure between 20-30 is easier to guess than 40-65ish (Tennis). I do use an ERT for tennis and have tried for badminton, but again for Badminton players they want to be economical, and are just happy to have someplace to play and a racket to play with.
    I am interested in trying out your machine. I have talked to the Gonz and has spoke highly about it.
    I don't think that the market for this is professional players. Pros represent 0,001% of the players anyways. I think this is for professional stringers to better advise their non professional customers.

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by yan.v View Post
    I don't think that the market for this is professional players. Pros represent 0,001% of the players anyways. I think this is for professional stringers to better advise their non professional customers.
    I agree, but unlike tennis professionals or even competitive tennis players, badminton players in general don't give a crap about their equipment.even your .001% of stringers in the world wouldnt care about this product. My point was that badminton people in general are cheap, always looking for the best deal, buying fake products and being satisified with it. Look at most of the stringers out there, trying to put together electronic machines, going for the cheapest way possible to try to get the best possible stringing machine for the buck. Why not shell out $7000USD for an awesome machine like an ES5 Protech, charge at least $15USD for labor and then that machine is paid off in 467 rackets. If you can get 9 rackets a week that is paid off in 1 year, cut it in half and then that is 2 years. then the rest is profit, you have made a name for yourself, having professional equipment and these machines will last for at least 6 years, my ES5 Pro is still going strong since 2007. Badminton people in general dont care unlike tennis players. I doubt you can find a high tech badminton player making good money want to go out and spend $60 on a string job. Plenty of tennis players do it.
    Don't get me wrong, I think you and me are part of the .001% of stringers out there that care about equipment but we are but a few. I ordered a swing weight machine to try to help out the US Olympic badminton team, I myself wanted to try it out, Rena Wang was the only person semi interested, but kinda felt like she didnt want me to go out of my way for her. The other players had no interest.

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