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  1. #35
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    Feel like I'm spamming the thread but just have to correct myself... That crazy overrule happened in the China Open QF, Wang Shixian vs Ratchanok Inthanon.

    It's actually quite hilarious. Lucky WSX was leading so big, she could afford to react with a crazy face, then cute smile and laugh. If you missed it see it here at 49:50, scoreline 18-6 2nd set:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3MPkUqvIWc
    Last edited by vixter; 11-19-2013 at 09:10 PM.

  2. #36
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    ^ lol... hopefully a photographer took a pic of her reaction... it was cute like "are you serious?!". fortunately she can afford to "donate" a point away.


    btw this is the same ump who called receiver fault on Hoon 3x! in the match against Cai/Chai.

  3. #37
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    It has long been the wish of both players and fans alike that challenges on line calls are necessary to verify their truth or otherwise and to get rid of biased judgements, which could make a difference between winning or losing.

    On the negative side, players may use this option to delay play, to get a breather and to regain their composure. But as elaborated here, there are other ways too to 'steal' time such as fake diving and the request to wipe the floor.

    Ideally too, there should be a similar system to verify calls on service faults, particularly those relating to serving above the "waist" and racket not pointing downwards when contacting the shuttle. As pointed out it is very difficult to pinpoint the waist of each player as size and height are different and the lowest rib is invisible to the service judge since that particular body area is covered and not exposed. Maybe we need to wait much longer to resolve this issue on service. Right now we still have to rely on the "imagination" of the service judge and hope he/she is not too carried away. And hopefully this service judge is from a neutral country to avoid unnecessary criticsm.

    As for line calls, maybe to prevent unnecessary delay, challenges can be limited to say five maximun in a match, whether such calls are genuine or not. In other words, players can resort to a maxinum of five dubious challenges and hopefully their two correct challenges are among the five.

  4. #38
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    If their challenges are correct, then they can have 100 or 5000 more challenges as long as they're all correct. Cool huh?

  5. #39
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    If their challenges are correct, then they can have 100 or 5000 more challenges as long as they're all correct. Cool huh?
    Very tough job for the umpire and the organizers as it will turn out to be an argument competition instead.

  6. #40
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh View Post
    Very tough job for the umpire and the organizers as it will turn out to be an argument competition instead.
    Won't be an argument or a problem if the ump or line judges were correct and did their job properly.

    After 2 wrong challenges, then no more challenges.

    Although now I wonder, how many challenges in doubles? 2 per player per match? That's 4 per pair?

  7. #41
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    Won't be an argument or a problem if the ump or line judges were correct and did their job properly.

    After 2 wrong challenges, then no more challenges.

    Although now I wonder, how many challenges in doubles? 2 per player per match? That's 4 per pair?
    If you see the way BWF have worded it in post #2, it says 2 per pair for doubles.

  8. #42
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    If you see the way BWF have worded it in post #2, it says 2 per pair for doubles.
    Ya I was just being facetious.

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    Won't be an argument or a problem if the ump or line judges were correct and did their job properly.

    After 2 wrong challenges, then no more challenges.

    Although now I wonder, how many challenges in doubles? 2 per player per match? That's 4 per pair?
    I see the winking-grin, however, let me bite at this.

    As a player, I would like to find out how good this system is, also, to find out which line has a weaker judge. Then I will adapt my tactic (change strategy) to unsettle, the opponent and/or the line judge, or even block that camera.

    Another possible scenario is after the umpire has over-ruled the line judge call and then a player/pair challenges. Now that will most certainly will add to the drama and excitement of the Superseries Finals – both for players and fans per BWF's Lund - http://bit.ly/1bjGlgo.

    Be that as it may, many players already know that the last third section of the sideline on the service judge side is where most challenges will take place. A lot of fine tuning will be required to find the least possible dead-ball time, meaning how instant is the instant review, or instance review. No matter, both, players and court officials will adapt, just like they have always done, be it rule change, format, whatever. To me, the main reason why there is an umpire is to have fair play, and that players, coaches, spectators have confidence in, and trust, them to make the right and correct call.
    Last edited by 2wheels04; 12-05-2013 at 02:06 PM. Reason: added link

  10. #44
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    maybe i am a purist, but it will be a sad day when players starts using the challenges as a tactical tool. not unlike fouls being used as tactical tools in basketball and american football.

    has there been similar precedence in tennis where they have a similar system? where players uses the challenge as a way to delay the game or unsettle the judges?

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    has there been similar precedence in tennis where they have a similar system? where players uses the challenge as a way to delay the game or unsettle the judges?
    I think when they first trialled hawkeye with tennis, they had no limit on the number of challenges you could make and some players were abusing it to challenge anything that was even remotely close just to stall for time to catch their breath. Less of an issue after the two incorrect challenge rule was introduced shortly after. I have noticed that umpires are now much less inclined to overrule on line judge calls but if asked by players can advise them if they thought it was close or not.

  12. #46
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yuki onitsura View Post
    I think when they first trialled hawkeye with tennis, they had no limit on the number of challenges you could make and some players were abusing it to challenge anything that was even remotely close just to stall for time to catch their breath. Less of an issue after the two incorrect challenge rule was introduced shortly after. I have noticed that umpires are now much less inclined to overrule on line judge calls but if asked by players can advise them if they thought it was close or not.
    in badminton, i have seen more and more umpire making totally strange overrule that makes no sense. after tv replay some are so bad it makes you wonder if they are deliberated biased. thankfully the new video system will cull out those as well.

  13. #47
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    maybe i am a purist, but it will be a sad day when players starts using the challenges as a tactical tool. not unlike fouls being used as tactical tools in basketball and american football.
    Be prepared for your sad day very soon.

    In fact can we have a poll - From which country will players start abusing this rule first(I.e calling a challenge when it is 6 inches in for a breather).

    To be honest I don't think it's that big a deal. Players will try to use the rule to their advantage, but imo the advantage they could possibly gain (by any way they try to with challenges), will be pretty minimal. Unless opposing player/s has an extremely weak mentality.

  14. #48
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Why all the worry about this being abused as a tactical tool to take a breather? There are only 2 whole incorrect line challenges in the whole match.

    And currently any player can lunge and fall onto the mat either with their sweaty hands or bodies, any time they want to take a rest while the mat is being mopped up.

  15. #49
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    maybe i am a purist, but it will be a sad day when players starts using the challenges as a tactical tool. not unlike fouls being used as tactical tools in basketball and american football.

    has there been similar precedence in tennis where they have a similar system? where players uses the challenge as a way to delay the game or unsettle the judges?

    By the way it happens in tennis a lot, a player uses up his challenges if he needs an extra breath and feels he doesn't need all his remaining challenges(tiebreaks etc). Commentary, fans and both players(especially opposing player) usually has a bit of a chuckle, it's taken in good spirit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yfHuYm_kM<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8yfHuYm_kM">
    Last edited by craigandy; 12-05-2013 at 10:38 PM.

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun View Post
    maybe i am a purist, but it will be a sad day when players starts using the challenges as a tactical tool. not unlike fouls being used as tactical tools in basketball and american football.

    has there been similar precedence in tennis where they have a similar system? where players uses the challenge as a way to delay the game or unsettle the judges?
    What the instant review will do is to put the onus on the player/team for the stoppage. This is where most tactics are employed after all. Consider all the current continuity restarts - change of shuttle, court-mop, injury, suspension, etc. How many are initiated by the player? How about the fixed restarts - start of game, start and end of the intervals within game and between games. The player does not control this, and any deviation here and the player/team pays a price [generally], penalised instantly with a stern warning, if not, either a yellow or red card.

    The present philosophy is continuity of play from "First Game, Love-all, Play" to "Game. Match won by ..." and the umpire will only impose when this philosophy is not followed.

    This review-stop will be another phase of the match and will be part of match. And a brand new one. As a player and coach, I would like to know if the system which was already trialled twice, is actually correct, and timely, in match situations. There are at least two people involved on court - the umpire who will signal to the referee, and the referee. Off court, there will be the desk-johnnies mucking about with review buttons and slo-mo, back and forth, back and forth. And not to mention all the communication between these parties and equipment. Lots of variables, right?

    And not to deviate too much from the cat-mouse routine that you see at the highest level of competitions, here is my understanding of tactics that are, and have always been, used. Players need most of all to know what to expect from the umpires. As a player, these are the main things:

    1. to weigh up the opponent(s),
    2. decide what to do about them (and how), and
    3. test out the umpire


    Just like many other things in life, we must first find out the person or establishment we do business with is creditable, a good player will test out the umpire from the get go, and if the umpire is not imposing his/her authority, does not demonstrate we-know-what-we-are-doing team-work, then s/he will be taken for the ride.

    And here are the main themes of communication by umpire to player/team:
    • develop empathy/rapport with players/teams
    • demonstrate control
    • maintain authority
    • prevent infringements of playing philosophy existing at the time
    • explain actions and decisions


    Now at a higher level, the instant review is a communication for the purpose of mediating conflict - s/he says it is out, i say it is not, or vice versa. While this review is taking place, could I take a drink, towel off, tie shoe-laces, what? This is not clarified in the Player's Guide. How about the review taking place, and the player decides to towel off, drink, etc etc without permission from umpire. Now, the review result is in. What, what did you say, was it in or out, I did not see the screen? Then I ask for mop, why? While everyone was busy looking at the screen, I put some sweat drips. Okay, mop done. Can we now have a shuttle change? And so shall the cat-mouse routine begin anew, and continue!

  17. #51
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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