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  1. #35
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    I don't follow - what is negative aspect of having a ranking system?

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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    I don't follow - what is negative aspect of having a ranking system?
    then they become too focused on themselves climbing to the top, instead of helping each other and everyone as a whole community to improve and elevate badminton in Canada and on the world stage

  3. #37
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    Yes, as Thailand has been doing very well. They have managed to create 3 or 4 fantastic women singles players without national rankings. They train against each other everyday improving each other's games. This doesn't happen in Canada. All if Canada's best players train individually all over the country. All over the world. During the summer I trained with another Canadian boy here in dongguan. Our Canadian players are all VERY individual.

  4. #38
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    Ok, so if someone says who's the best ladies player Thailand - what do you say don't know there are 3 or 4 of them. But in Reality everyone knows who is the best player.

    I agree if you have a national training center - athletes can help each other improve. But in Canada it's not feasible due the size of the country. Athletes also have other jobs and school in addition to Badminton.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by catman View Post
    Ok, so if someone says who's the best ladies player Thailand - what do you say don't know there are 3 or 4 of them. But in Reality everyone knows who is the best player.

    I agree if you have a national training center - athletes can help each other improve. But in Canada it's not feasible due the size of the country. Athletes also have other jobs and school in addition to Badminton.
    Right, Intanon is the best player but how was she developed? There will always be a best player in a group. but, in this case, they were able to create a world champion. It was HOW they developed her. The Thai coaches have it right. Work together, train together, push each other up. There will always be the best one, but the point is that the best one keeps CHANGING. While one is the best the others learn from her, then start to beat her. and so on.

    When you have a national ranking system, players from the same nation are more likely to push each other down. That whole system I mentioned above is non-existent. That is the problem that lies within national rankings. Yes, Canada is a big country, but if players were good enough and dedicated enough, they could move to Ottawa or wherever the training centre would be. I would, I moved to China lol. How about China? HUGE country. Players relocate on a regular basis for training. There are national training centres all over the country. Canada should and could work the same way China does. You excel in your city, move to the provincial team. excel in your province, move to national team and use system mentioned above. If this was implemented in Canada, we may create a few world class players. throw national rankings out the window and work on developing players. THIS IS MY VISION FOR CANADIAN BADMINTON (After I retire). Maybe I should follow in Taufik's footsteps and build a national training centre in my home town (Kitchener) lol

  6. #40
    Regular Member nbonkowsky's Avatar
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    TheComedian I like your vision and see where you are coming from for Canadian badminton. I was born and raised in Canada but compete for another country cause of duel citizenship. In Calgary I train at the Glencoe Club and some years ago it use to be the national training center for Canada, all the players moved here to train. But now it's no longer that way and we have a small but decently good program with only around 5-7 players in the High Performance/National Training Center group.

    Unfortunately unlike Asia players in Canada cannot all dedicate their entire lives to badminton and need to go to school or work in order to fund their passion. Yes it is true there are some exceptions (Michelle Li, and others are full time training but it is not always an easy life). There simply isn't the same caliber or number of players in each city let alone province to have that effect of pushing each other forwards. It does happen but not to the same extent as in Asia. Players do tend to relocate either out east to some of the many centers in Ontario or out west to the centers in Vancouver. Essentially splitting the country into east and west in terms of training, this also means players develop their own groups.

    So its not to say that they are very individual they are just all spread out and I know that players will regularly go other places to train with other players if they have the time and money. We have Alex Pang at our club and train a decent amount together, many players across Canada have come over for a few days or a week to train with him before tournaments. Yes that is different than months together but its what their schedule allows and lets be honest its expensive over here.

    All in all I like your optimism for Canadian badminton and it is good that your time on the international scene has not come to an end yet. Best of luck in the china international, I was looking to attend that one but it would simply cost to much so am signed up for German GPG instead. I'm not trying to provoke or start an argument in any way so don't think that from what I said, just giving my view on it.

  7. #41
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    Ah yes, You play for Trinidad. Watched you play at the Macau Open in November. You played with some Malaysian guy. Anyway, you train with Alex Pang, there is a player who (in my opinion) is throwing is talent away. In 2010 he takes Taufik to 3 games, then last year he loses the National Championships to a retired Bobby Milroy. That's what I'm saying, Canada's top ranked players, are all under 150 in the world. only participating in events in Canada and the US. If they competed in Asia or Europe their rankings wouldn't be nearly as high. But it can be changed. It needs to be changed if Canada ever expects to develop a world champion. training with Alex Pang for 3 days is not enough. My regular sparring partners here in China can beat Alex Pang very easily. I remember your performance at the Macau open, and, I have to say, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but you lost 6 and 7 to an unseeded Malaysian in 15min. I want to develop players, I know how to develop players, seen I've been a part of developing players. And after watching your match, I know how to develop you :P (PM me if your interested)

    But what I mentioned before is what Canada needs, and I'm sure I could find some players or children to develop once I've retired. I love to coach as much as I like to train.

  8. #42
    Regular Member demolidor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung View Post
    That's an excellent point about national rankings. In fact, Toby Ng of Canada has pointed out malalignment of logic in rankings and seedings in Canadian badminton.

    Good luck with your vision!
    Excellent point? That is the most ridiculous assumption around ... EVERY country in Europe works with a national ranking system; that it supposedly means the world to every Canadian player and is their single focus says nothing about the system itself. To most (senior) players in the national team setup it doesn't mean much, only the national championships and international ranking and of course tournament results nationally and internationally. The ranking helps in tournament seeding ...
    Badminton Canada has no money, no league structure like in Europe; no tournament circuit(?) ...
    Last edited by demolidor; 01-24-2014 at 07:47 AM.

  9. #43
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    Of course it can and has led to some awkward seeding situations and ensuing discussion in the past were clearly lesser players were seeded higher because their national ranking was higher compared to players playing international tournaments or play in foreign leagues. But there are more players than just those in the national team, these are not just numbers you can just disregard either. I'm sure Japan would have a national ranking system and almost opposite organized structure compared to Thailand, so to use the Thailand situation as the example of why a ranking system sucks ...

    And it is possible to get to world class results with little means and a huge amount of dedication with a small group but not consistently. A local example that is always used is the men's volleyball team that won Olympic gold in Atlanta '96 but that is a teamsport that only had to peak at a few moments and nowadays is nowhere near world class. An unsustainable model of utter, obsesive dedication by a like minded group, almost comparable to "the miracle on ice".
    Last edited by demolidor; 01-24-2014 at 08:08 AM.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by demolidor View Post
    Excellent point? That is the most ridiculous assumption around ... EVERY country in Europe works with a national ranking system; that it supposedly means the world to every Canadian player and is their single focus says nothing about the system itself. To most (senior) players in the national team setup it doesn't mean much, only the national championships and international ranking and of course tournament results nationally and internationally. The ranking helps in tournament seeding ...
    Badminton Canada has no money, no league structure like in Europe; no tournament circuit(?) ...
    Does a national ranking system work? Just because it is in place in Europe doesn't mean that it works well. To be honest, I never been one for national rankings. I can see where it would help in getting sponsorship but there can be disadvantages. Seedings? I don't think it is really that hard to give more higher seedings to those with results at international level. But supporters of a national ranking system may argue otherwise.

    Disclaimer : only referring to national rankings and not international rankings, international competitions and seedings.
    Last edited by Cheung; 01-24-2014 at 09:16 AM.

  11. #45
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    I agree if you can get top players together in one location and train together they will all improve. An extreme example would be the Williams sisters - who just trained against each other and was able to develop to very high (highest) levels.

    But there will always be a ranking system official or unofficial. In the USA football(soccer) matches for kids they don't keep score - but every kid knows who's winning.

    In Canada - the provincial associations are supposed to develop the players to national level then the national level is supposed to take them to international level. But as I mentioned since most players have school and work - they tend stay where the work and school is. In Asia, these players you're talking about Badminton is their career - so it makes sense to go to the various centers as it's going to affect their careers. I guess it is the difference between professional and amateur systems.

  12. #46
    Regular Member nbonkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheComedian View Post
    Ah yes, You play for Trinidad. Watched you play at the Macau Open in November. You played with some Malaysian guy. Anyway, you train with Alex Pang, there is a player who (in my opinion) is throwing is talent away. In 2010 he takes Taufik to 3 games, then last year he loses the National Championships to a retired Bobby Milroy. That's what I'm saying, Canada's top ranked players, are all under 150 in the world. only participating in events in Canada and the US. If they competed in Asia or Europe their rankings wouldn't be nearly as high. But it can be changed. It needs to be changed if Canada ever expects to develop a world champion. training with Alex Pang for 3 days is not enough. My regular sparring partners here in China can beat Alex Pang very easily. I remember your performance at the Macau open, and, I have to say, I'm not trying to insult you or anything, but you lost 6 and 7 to an unseeded Malaysian in 15min. I want to develop players, I know how to develop players, seen I've been a part of developing players. And after watching your match, I know how to develop you :P (PM me if your interested)

    But what I mentioned before is what Canada needs, and I'm sure I could find some players or children to develop once I've retired. I love to coach as much as I like to train.

    Yes I did lose to him pretty fast and with low scores, I am not the same level as players top 50 in the world and higher. The Malaysian guy who beat me also beat his next round guy the exact same scores. You did have a good match against the 3rd seed so congrats to you there. I fortunately did have success at tournaments in Tahiti and Brazil making quarters finals and loosing to a top 50 and same in Brazil loosing to a top 50. Anyways besides the point right now.

    Canadian badminton, although Alex Pang more or less officially retired 2 years ago he still does train here and there the thing is he has such great knowledge and understanding of the game that he trains very smartly and knows exactly what to do. Bobby does still maintain his level as hes not training to compete internationally again but those players simply have such a high understanding of the game and so much experience they can beat lots of players out there still. You should come back and play in the Canadian Nationals some time.

    As for the rankings yes I agree, but you have to also understand that for you to travel around in Asia its cheap. I went to china 3 times in the past to train and I loved it and it is very cheap to train there even when I was there for tournaments it was super cheap between countries. But for players to fly from here to Asia or Europe that's around $1000 (if your super lucky) to $1800+ and then add on hotel, food, etc that's just not worth it unless you know you will do good in the tournament or just have $1500-2000+ to blow for a week.

    But it would be great for Canadian badminton if you return and are able to implement a china style training center to accomplish your goals.

  13. #47
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    Just out of curiosity and trying to judge your wholehearted words:
    Is this your record on international level?

    http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/pr...1-B2A4755426BB

  14. #48
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    Actually, it's very expensive to train in china. Depending on where your training and who your training with. Sometimes I train with the legendary Tang Xianhu at the Liyongbo badminton am school here in dongguan, but it's 400RMB person session. That's approaching $100 per session. One session is about 3 hours. To train with Hunan provincial team is 10,000RMB per month. But that includes living and food. It's cheaper than the west but it ain't "cheap." Not sure where you were training in china, but it's not cheap. And I actually have to leave dongguan and go back to a small city in hubei to save some money and train myself for a while. Running out of skrilla after that china international.

    I have given a video of bobby milroy and another of Alex pang to tang xianhu to get his opinion on their level and their playing styles. I won't post what he said here, as I may get in trouble I'll just mention that he said they have VERY ugly and bad techniques and predictable playing styles. One Canadian badminton player I look up to in Andrew Dabeka. I feel he was our best. But all these former Canadian players have experience playing on the international circuit, but not really any knowledge of techniques, strategies, or even basic footwork (other than Andrew). I watched Stephan W. On YouTube the other day, he always would play a shot moving away from center court, never playing the shuttle while moving his momentum forward into the court. This is very slow, and it's very easy to deceive a player who moves like that. Just my thoughts. Most (if not every) Canadian player has gone over seas to learn badminton. Our country cannot develop players at all. On top of that, our retired players coach for themselves. So even they can't develop a player. That Clear 1 badminton center in Richmond BC is the problem in my opinion. All the coaches are there making their wallets fat charging REDICULOUS amounts of money per hour for their coaching and the students learn squat. They have everyone convinced that's where you need to be if you want to learn badminton.

  15. #49
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    Isn't Andrew back to Canada these days? I thought so...

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by |_Footwork_| View Post
    Just out of curiosity and trying to judge your wholehearted words:
    Is this your record on international level?

    http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/pr...1-B2A4755426BB
    Yeah, what's your point? I would love to hear what you have to say about it.

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by |_Footwork_| View Post
    Isn't Andrew back to Canada these days? I thought so...
    Lol, and again, what's your point?

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